Chemical sexuality

[andrewducker]

Reuters reports on another link between sex hormones and sexuality.

PCOS is strongly linked to high levels of androgens (like testosterone). It's now also strongly linked to lesbians:
"The prevalence of PCOS is two and a half times, almost three times, as high in lesbian women compared to heterosexual women."

The London clinic was among the first centers in Europe to offer fertility treatment to lesbians and single women. In a study of 618 women treated at the clinic, Agrawal discovered that 38 percent of the lesbian women had PCOS, compared to 14 percent of the heterosexual women.

Now, 518 isn't a huge sample size by anyone's standards, but it's yet another link between testosterone levels and sexuality.

Comments

[kpollock.livejournal.com]

Maybe where the "fat lesbian" sterotype comes from?

[andrewducker]

Singh, D., Vidaurri, M., Zambarano, R. J., & Dabbs, J. M., Jr. (1999). Behavioral morphological, and hormonal correlates of erotic role identification among lesbian women. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 76, 1035-1049.
Abstract
Many lesbian scholars maintain that many lesbian women privately identify with erotic roles commonly referred to as butch and femme (Lulan, 1990; Nestle, 1992). The butch and femme erotic roles are typically defined, respectively, by masculine and feminine dress, mannerisms, and behaviors. In a pair of studies on the validity of the butch/femme erotic classification, we compared self-described butch and femme lesbians on various hormonal, morphological, and hormonal measures that typically show significant sex differences. Butch and femme lesbian women were not significantly different on masculine-feminine role inventory, depressive symptomology, eating disorders, or level of body dissatisfaction. Butch lesbian women, however, recalled significantly more childhood gender atypical behaviors, had higher waist-to hip ratios (a measure of sex-specific body fat distribution), and had higher salivary testosterone levels than femme lesbian and heterosexual women. These findings suggest the butch-femme classification has validity and that lesbian women are not a homogenous group.

From here

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Of course, all this can be explained just as easily if sexual preference is unrelated and non-genetic. I've known two women with PCOS, both are taller and generally larger (heavy bone structure not fat) than average and one (who has the most serious case) is quite masculine looking.

Many people assume that large women and especially masculine-looking women are lesbians or are at minimum more likely to be lesbians based on the naive assumption that because they are interested in women they must be more like men. This conscious and (especially) unconscious pattern of assumptions undoubtedly has a profound affect on someone's self-image.

Within the lesbian community, if someone intrinsically looks somewhat butch, it seems likely that they will be assumed to be butch, further continuing the pattern of assumptions.

So, even if both studies are accurate (the first seems possible, but the second seems rather unlikely) they say nothing about any intrinsic connection between inborn traits and homosexuality.

The significant cultural and situational differences in sexual preference and behavior fond worldwide are really the only evidence I need to show that any genetic components are at most minor.

[andrewducker]

You use the words "Many", "more likely" and "seems likely" in your observations and then use that to lead to a definitive "say nothing".

Which seems rather strong to me.

The second study, combined with the first study and many other studies I've seen, all indicate to me that testosterone levels have a strong underlying effect on people's sexuality.

The expression of that sexuality is obviously dependent on cultural norms and the person's particular background.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

You use the words "Many", "more likely" and "seems likely" in your observations and then use that to lead to a definitive "say nothing".

Which seems rather strong to me.

Given that it took me less than 5 minutes to come up with a purely cultural explanation that works equally well as one based on the alleged psychological affects of testosterone, the data at most indicates a correlation between PCOS and lesbianism, but it in no way indicates any sort of cause or reason for this correlation. Assuming causality without evidence is one of the most common and most serious flaws of most studies attempting to prove that human behavior is genetically determined.

[andrewducker]

you're correct, there's no causality there.

But there's no strict causality in yours either, except "it may affect the way they feel about themselves".

How it does so is a large empty box which you don't explain.

If you follow the link at the end of the second article I posted (here: http://www.gsu.edu/~psyjmd/VitaTesto.html) you'll find a load more studies linked testosterone to various behaviours.

Which isn't to say that all are accurate, but I find it extremely hard to believe that there's so much correlation in so many different tests fom unrelated people without something going on.

[(Anonymous)]

"There must be something going on"
People said the same about phrenology and the biological inferiority of "savages".
I obviously don't have a huge amount of faith in "objective" science. But considering the Dabbs research that indicated that some testosterone related behaviours actually increase testosterone levels, you could conclude that playing the butch role results in higher T levels......
Also- what proportopn of women who are attracted to/have sex with women actually identify as exclusively butch or femme? Probably about as many who identitfy as bears or vanilla or dykes who f*%* gay men with strap-ons or who are monogomous, polyamorous, into blood play, water sprots etc etc......there are so many lesbian identities, sexual practices and subcultures it seems a little arrogant to speculate about lesbians from a sample of self identified butch and femme girls.

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

I think that stereotype comes from the "(lesbian -> ugly) + (fat -> ugly) [therefore] lesbian -> fat and fat -> lesbian" train of "thought", and so fat lesbians are more easily identified as lesbians, and form the "core representation" for many people. Average and thin lesbians are discounted as exceptions, no matter how many of them there are. I wouldn't say the actual lesbians I know are any fatter than the straight women I know.

[andrewducker]

I tend to feel the same way about the "fat goth" stereotype. Fat goths are far more noticable than skinny goths, so they are remembered far more.

However, if the "butch" study above is accurate, then the differing morphology may have some basis in fact.

Far too many ifs in there for my liking, but maybe in 10 years there'll be better censuses of people, their genes and their makeup and we'll be able to actually perform statistically valid studies.

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

I don't think the study you quoted above backs up your point nearly as much as it backs up mine, actually. It finds that butch dykes are fatter than average, and femme dykes aren't. So, people ignore average-sized femmes in order to form their stereotypes based on fat butches.

As an average-sized femme, I can attest that that works in practice, and not just among straight people, either. You should try being me and getting into a gay bar on a Saturday night...

[andrewducker]

I would, only I'm not sure your clothes would fit me :->

I see your point, and it does appear that femme lesbians aren't testosterone affected (at least, not from the data there), which only goes to show that there are lots of causes (many cultural, many chemical) for pretty much anything people do.

[allorin.livejournal.com]

Damn - you mean you can identify lesbians because of their body-shape?

I thought it was the shaved head that gave it away.... ;+)

[kpollock.livejournal.com]

seems also a reasonable explanation. Stereotypes start somewhere with some grain of statistical (though usually in a very limited sample) truth.

What about male fanatasy pretty 'lesbians' though?

[andrewducker]

They have to exist. I've seen 'em in the movies.

Alternatively you've got the grain of truth exaggerated out of all proportion again.

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

But making correlations between menstrual/ reproductive disorders and lesbian-ness is always a bit dodgy. In this specfic case, what springs to mind is: many people with PCOS are treated by going on the contraceptive pill. Many more heterosexually-active women than homosexually-active women take the pill. How many undiagnosed cases of PCOS are being unknowingly treated into a symptomless state among women on the pill for contraceptive reasons?

There's other stuff, like lesbians apparently having more irregular periods than straight women, on average, that can be really well explained by the lower rate of taking the pill.

That's not to say I don't think there are correlations between high testosterone in women and lesbianism. I know too many butch dykes not to think there's something there. It's just really not clear what that is.

[andrewducker]

I agree that we shouldn't be leaping to conclusions.

Oh, and check the response to another reply on this post, which goes into more detail.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

But, you know (I know you know) most of the differences between butch dykes and femme dykes are cosmetic, not real. And I'm not too clear whether the differences that remain after the cosmetic differences are removed actually count for anything: in part at least, tall fat dykes often adopt the butch identity because it's a lot more comfortable than trying to be femme when your bodytype doesn't fit that (and makes it tricky to buy femme clothing anyway). You will get high correlation between tall fat dykes/butch dykes for that reason, but there's an obvious social reason why, without blaming testosterone.

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

Damn you, hJc, that was going to be my next argument.

Yes, because if there's no social mediation of choices in self-presentation, then why would fashions change, or differ across cultures? It's all about the negotiated response.

I think, actually, when I shorthanded to "butch", I should have said something more like "a subset of butch women who have strongly male-stereotyped or male-correlated social, emotional and physical attributes". I do think that, anecdotally, I know more dykes than straight women who have, for example, very "triangular" body shapes, or lots of facial heair. Of course, that may be a question of people feeling free not to modify their bodies to hide those features.

[andrewducker]

It's all about the negotiated response

I the think the word 'all' there is far too sure of itself.

It's certainly partially about the negotiated response.

[(Anonymous)]

Definately agree- try being a fat, thick waisted, tall, hairy femme- IT DOESN'T WORK.