andrewducker: (Default)
andrewducker ([personal profile] andrewducker) wrote2012-06-14 12:00 pm

[identity profile] andlosers.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 02:53 pm (UTC)(link)
I think this is very different. Whatever their views, Hamas are more significant than a local neo-Nazi group. They're a major political force that is usually not given a voice in the western world. I'm with Sven's implied point here.

That article is, in itself, wildly biased in the other direction. Separately, via MetaFilter, I read a pretty biased interview with Noam Chomsky on the subject, which made me sad. It's really hard to find objective perspectives on Israel. I do think Judaism and "the Jews" needs to be left out of it on both sides though: Israel is a nation, and dealing with it in any other terms does the issue a disservice.

[identity profile] andlosers.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 02:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Pet peeve, for example: being in favour of a Palestinian state and simultaneously not in favour of the Israeli government's policies on the issue does not make one an anti-semite. I know plenty of people of Jewish descent that sit in that camp, and would happily discuss it over Seder.

Ethnicities and cultures are not exactly equivalent with nations. I'd argue that making that equivalence is in itself racism.
Edited 2012-06-14 14:59 (UTC)

[identity profile] khbrown.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 10:58 pm (UTC)(link)
I think that one problem there is that being critical of Israeli government policies, or of Zionism, is too often then taken as being anti-Semitic. It's seeing things in binary black/white, either/or terms rather than as a continuum or shades of grey.

[identity profile] steer.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 03:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Absolutely this. The article in The Commentator was ludicrously biased -- I think the writer hoped that you'd read that and not actually look at the Guardian piece. The article in the guardian was polemic sure.

[identity profile] andlosers.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 03:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Totally agree with the Sinn Fein comparison. Not a group I'd ever want to support, but not giving them a voice is counter-productive at best.

[identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 03:38 pm (UTC)(link)
I suspect some of the anti-Israel sentiment comes from people who (subconsciously) think of Israel as a modern western nation and anti-semitism as a thing of the past, and then get horrified when they realise what Israel's done. And also, Israel got a lot of uncritical acceptence from the west on the grounds of (a) being a sort of anti-holocaust and (b) being more like western nations in several respects, and I think there's a subsconscious feeling of "everyone knows all that, so to balance it up, we just have to keep pointing out that israel's done awful things, everyone knows anti-semitism is bad, it's not like we'll be anti-semitic by accident, oh oops, fuck"... :)

[identity profile] octopoid-horror.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 05:34 pm (UTC)(link)
A lot of anti-Israeli (while not anti-Semitic) sentiment seems to be based around the nigh-unconditional acceptance of whatever Israel does by the United States, be it war crimes, criminal occupation, the ghettoisation of Palestinians, the current discussion around immigration and foreigners and the treatment of certain ethnic groups. Given that the politics and media of the US have such a massive global reach and influennce on the Western world, people can see it as important to voice their feelings if they aren't pro-Israel or neutral since Israel has the backing of a superpower.

Unfortunately, this can often lead to them voicing the same issues as actual anti-Semities, but for more valid reasons (ie reasons unrelated to Judaism or simple bigotry) or simply being cast as anti-Semites by the pro-Israel lobby as a simple way to discount their views without needing to argue against them. Also, due to the spectre of anti-Semitism in even reasoned political debate, some are afraid to talk about Israeli-related issues for fear of being labelled as such.

It is ironic that some outspoken Israeli politicians have more in common with European far right parties than the (real or supposedly) anti-Semitic detractors of Israel do.

[identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 03:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I was thinking of that, although I wasn't sure if the comparison would be welcomed or not. I assumed that there's been a lot more death more recently than in Ireland (although I don't know for certain), but it's another case of a terrorist organisation that also has a reasonable (but far from perfect) representation of the people.