andrewducker: (Default)
andrewducker ([personal profile] andrewducker) wrote2012-06-14 12:00 pm

[identity profile] artkouros.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 11:30 am (UTC)(link)
They're blocking stories about vacuum trains?

[identity profile] makyo.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 12:18 pm (UTC)(link)
35mm Film is About to Die – Studios Plan to Go With All Digital Projection by 2014
This makes me a little sad - my wife and I met while projecting 35mm film at our university film society.

Is the Guardian the most bigoted newspaper in Britain?

[identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 12:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow, Robin Shepherd has written a lot of anti-Muslim/pro-Israel stuff.

I feel like the music stopped, and all the people with anti-Muslim opinions and all the people with anti-Jewish opinions sat down, but there weren't enough chairs in one place, so they ended up confusingly scattered across the political spectrum. And now I don't understand the political landscape any more :) (In truth, this is mostly my awareness, not a change in real life :))

Generally left/liberal circles, prominently including the guardian, definitely have an awful anti-Israel sentiment that spills over into anti-Jewish sentiment, which is rather awful.

But also, Israel has done some really really awful things to Palestinians, and if there's a "wipe Israel away" sentiment, that's pretty inevitable. And I don't agree with Hamas' rhetoric, but I'm not sure they can be ignored out of being a problem, and their main complaint is probably widely shared in palestine. (I might agree publishing it uncritically in the guardian is bad, if that's what happened.)

[identity profile] artkouros.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 12:27 pm (UTC)(link)
especially since I just read it for free.

[identity profile] hano.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 12:33 pm (UTC)(link)
I'd be very wary of anything written by Robin Shepherd and especially anything published in The Commentator. It's a right wing rag run for and by a bunch of increasingly lunatic libertarians, with an agenda to attack the state at every opportunity. They *hate* the Guardian with a real passion, and love nothing more than discrediting it whenever they can.

[identity profile] lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 12:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, but a comment piece like that will pick, choose and skews its facts.

[identity profile] momentsmusicaux.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 12:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Are there adverts on that page?

It might be that it's not so much about preventing UK people from seeing the content, but from being subjected to ads. There's maybe some stuff in the BBC's rules about not ever using ads in the UK.

[identity profile] momentsmusicaux.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 12:53 pm (UTC)(link)
That picture they have at the top of the piece... it doesn't exactly lend itself to a fair discussion of facts.

[identity profile] lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 12:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Which facts are you referring to?

[identity profile] lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 12:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh that sounded confrontational - I just mean I'm confused as to who's rebuttal of what you mean.
zz: (Default)

[personal profile] zz 2012-06-14 01:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Is the Guardian the most bigoted newspaper in Britain?

his argument seems to be that because hamas are suboptimal ranging to evil, their members/leaders shouldn't be allowed a voice ever? wtf?

[identity profile] naath.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 01:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Is the guardian the MOST bigoted... well, I dunno; the Guardian are often anti-Israeli-government/pro-Palestinian-statehood which doesn't have to be bigotry but that does seem to spill over into being anti-semitic unless policed very very carefully, and I don't think the Guardian are very careful about their policing.

On the other hand many other newspapers spew disgusting bigotry too. The Daily Mail for instance. Comparing one sort of bigotry to another sort is pretty foolish.

[identity profile] momentsmusicaux.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 01:46 pm (UTC)(link)
And the caption that it's a Guardian reader?

[identity profile] nmg.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 02:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Same here.

[identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 02:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I've spent too long trying to write a coherent reply to this.

I don't think any of the actual facts are in question. The guardian did publish that article. The guardian's stance on Israel is somewhat racist. The Hamas documents do say all those things about wiping Israel out.

But I think he's trying to smuggle in non-factual premises like "obviously everyone agrees that publishing that article was totally unforgiveable, it's so obvious I don't even need to justify it". Or "the guardian giving a platform to Haniyeh is characteristic of their level of bigotry and everything else they say is suspect."

For instance, wikipedia says Haniyeh is "a senior political leader of Hamas and one of two disputed Prime Ministers of the Palestinian National Authority". The article mentions the first (with possibly a mild exaggeration), but not the second. Is publishing an article by someone who's been a terrorist leader AND a democratically elected prime minister better than publishing an article by a terrorist leader? I think most people would say it's a lot more understandable, because whether the views are heinious or not, if they're widely represented in the population, they almost certainly will have to be engaged with somehow, not just ignored out of existance.

For instance, he says "Is the guardian the most bigoted newspaper?" He obviously wants to implicate the guardian's bigotedness as much as possible. I agree the guardian is rather racist about Israel. But I'm not sure that's clearly worse that people (such as Robin Shepherd himself) who automatically assume Muslim citizens of Britian are a dangerous reactionary problem to be fixed, rather than possibly equal members of society with everyone else.

For instance, the caption to the picture implies that the guardian probably agree with everything in the Hamas agenda, but even if they're wrong to be sympathetic to Hamas and very anti-Israel, I think that's unlikely.

Unfortunately, this sort of implication can be made faster than it can be rebutted, which makes talking about it especially time-consuming.

If we ignore Robin Shepherd, would you characterise the main question as "was the guardian wrong to publish something by Haniyeh?" I think it quite probably was, but I'm not positive.

[identity profile] andlosers.livejournal.com 2012-06-14 02:48 pm (UTC)(link)
A thousand times this.

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