andrewducker | On the internet nobody can tell what you actually meant.

I would take it to mean 'Really?'. (I'm not being snide. I've had to work hard to get to that point.)

As a verbal tic with no meaning?

As an expression of mild surprise engendered by coming across someone with a very different opinion.

Something like that, yes.

Also: as a check on "did I miss something?"

Ditto

I would take it that way in person unless the person's tone of voice was incredulous, but written I would tend to assume a greater level of surprise and the possibility of pointed disapproval of the opinion I had shared. But then I openly admit I sometimes struggle on the internet because of the lack of tone of voice as clue to what people really mean.

Also, I think the fact that person A is squeeing, rather than just saying they liked something, makes a difference.

This is actually one of those situations where I wish people could add new options to a poll and others could then vote them up.

OK but what you really want to know can be answered in a two-option poll - "if you were person A, would person B's use of 'Really?' get up your nose?"

Yes. I plan to post that one later. Sadly, on a bus right now.

BTW your title brings to mind the "Illusion of Transparency":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_transparency
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/07/14/the-illusion-of-transparency/
http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Illusion_of_transparency
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=illusion+of+transparency

Yup, the "did I miss something/wow, we had different experiences" thing.

Though the "you don't want to change you opinion" option could be easily true, depending on tone.

HRm... given that conversation ONLINE... I'd probably be more apt to think the first option than the second. I am fairly certain I don't use "really?" in text the same as I do verbally.

Though I do use really?!?! the same way... sort of as a "You've GOT to be kidding" that is usually directed toward a thing/person/situation/etc outside the conversation.

I voted before I found your conversation with marrog on the previous post.

It hadn't occurred to me that anyone would take "Really?" as literal disbelief, at least not without some strong contextual clues that way. In conversation, I think of it as one of those fairly meaningless interjections that conveys "I'm still listening."

You've got me worried now, that I've unknowingly offended people by saying "Really?" to them.

Also, "Really?" is something I - and other people - often reply to toddlers when they've said something incomprehensible, but I want to indicate that I'm listening and paying them attention. I certainly don't mean to imply scepticism about whatever it is they've said!

(Interestingly, though, for me "Seriously?" does mean what "Really?" means for you. I would be a bit offended if I said I liked something and someone said "Seriously?")

New poll time!

(Personally, I parse "Seriously?" and "Really?" identically.)

Ah, no, definitely seeing it differently to you on that one. Really is as described above, while "serioiusly?" would be "You're being sarcastic, right? You can't possibly *really* have a totally opposing view to my own... can you?"

Fuck, you Brits are seriously broken by your schooling system, aren't you? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Jeez.

Are you saying language is meaningless? That there is no meaning taken from words? That when someone says something it has no capacity for harm (or help)?

And what, exactly, does it have to do with the schools over here?

"Are you saying language is meaningless? That there is no meaning taken from words? "

What both? No, I'm saying that it says something about your cultural expectations of how others communicate that your first assumption when someone uses the innocuous word "really," ffs, that it must be code for some sort of massively snide put-down. It says something about your cultural expectations that you apparently can't even imagine that "really" would be used in its ordinary sense as an expression of mild disbelief and query for more information, without that query being fawningly fatuous. Basically, it looks like you don't believe in benign or even neutral communication.

What that says about the schools over there is that you are taught to expect an undercurrent of vitriolic mockery in every utterance you hear or read, unless the evidence is massively otherwise. At least all the evidence I have suggests its the culture of the schools, particularly "Public" schools, that inflicts that viewpoint.

I'm saying that it says something about your cultural expectations of how others communicate that your first assumption when someone uses the innocuous word "really

What you seem to be saying there is "I don't find that phrasing bad, therefore anyone that does has something wrong with them."

I have benign and neutral communication all of the time. You seem to be taking a single thing and turning it into a massive generalisation about a whole culture.

What that says about the schools over there is that you are taught to expect an undercurrent of vitriolic mockery in every utterance you hear or read

You seem to be making massive assumptions there. Especially as I didn't go to a public school, and I don't have more than a couple of people on my flist that did so either.

What you seem to be saying there is "I don't find that phrasing bad, therefore anyone that does has something wrong with them."

To the extent that they apparently miss huge swaths of connotational meaning in ordinary spoken and written English, yes. Lots of competent native speakers of English use "really" as an interrogative without any "bad" connotation intended. Is this really news to you?

You seem to be taking a single thing and turning it into a massive generalisation about a whole culture.

Ah, did you imagine that your poll was my only data point? That seems like a pretty silly assumption.

Is this really news to you?

No. But I asked, in general, when seeing it on the internet, how people would take it. Not "When someone says it in front of me, with an interrogative tone of voice, in a context that means they are being interrogative."

Depends on the way it's said, but usually negative.

Entirely in the tone of the person saying it. I've heard people say "really?" in ways which sound genuinely disbelieving and also in ways which sound like an express of mild surprise.

It depends entirely on the tone, which you can't pick up online a lot of the time.

If I prefaced a comment with "Really?" I could be
a] Slightly surprised, since I would not have expected YOU to like it
b] Slightly surprised, since I don't like it and am curious as to why you do.
c] Being sarcastic, because it's an adaptation of Neuromancer, written for the screen by Neal Stephenson and directed by David Fincher, scored by Trent Reznor and of COURSE you're going to like it
d] being polite, since a flat "I didn't like it." feels slightly more abrasive than prefacing it with "Really?"
e] Pretending to be interested because I honestly don't care but just like posting.
f] Lying and trying to deliberately bait you into an argument. I like the show, but want to pretend that I don't for the purposes of getting to post "u mad?"
g] Utterly shocked because people who like this show are worse than Hitler crossed with Fred Goodwin.

Heck, look at how Meredith sometimes misses the subtext and humour in things that you, Hugh or I say because the three of us have a relatively similar degree of Englishness that she doesn't share which comes out in our speech. And that is during actual face-to-face conversation.

It depends entirely on the tone, which you can't pick up online a lot of the time.

That being rather the point :->

Posting an effectively binary poll would suggest otherwise.

You've seen my polls before, right?

And the point is that on the internet you lack said context.

The poll instead suggested that you might lack understanding of nuance rather than that saying things on the internet lacks context.

But of course, I didn't realise the nuances of your poll.

It was more that when you read stuff (especially on t'internets) it's frequently stripped of nuance. Which means that all you have to go on is the actual words in front of you. That being the case, I was wondering how people would interpret what they had to go on.

I interpreted it as you posting a poll because you don't like to start a discussion with a statement of your own opinion directly any more.

Also, just typing "see below" would be easier for people who had missed the discussion of SEWIWEIC (since I also have never seen it anywhere but on your journal) :-D

Were I to *write* that, I would mean something in the general area between "this surprises me, because I would have expected your reactions to be different. Still, no accounting for taste I suppose, to each his own, etc," and "That's odd, because I saw few redeeming features in it. Would you mind explaining to me what it was that you enjoyed, so maybe I can see them too?"

So I tend to assume that other people mean it in that way, unless they give contextual clues otherwise.

This is pretty much my reading as well (perhaps mixed with a dash of "you're not pulling my leg, are you?")

If I said "Really?" at the start like that, it would mean "You really surprise me with that comment, I would have expected your thoughts to be in line with my own opposing ones".

"Really?" can be used like "Oh?" or like "Are you for real?!?" Depends on context and voical cues.

I would take "Really?" to mean "That differs markedly from my take on the episode." And I see it as a neutral comment, it just emphasizing a fact.

As to: "On the internet nobody can tell what you actually meant." Instead, how about: "On the internet people read more into what is written than is actually there."

Hmm... 'Really' means "I am surprised by this, and I disagree". Doesn't necessarily have a negative connotation, but it could do. Could also well be an attempt to start debate.

Context required. Can be either depending on the personality of the person in question.

On the internet nobody can tell what you actually meant.

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