andrewducker (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
andrewducker) wrote2010-03-24 10:57 am
andrewducker) wrote2010-03-24 10:57 am
How do you negotiate with crazy people?
- 67 percent of Republicans (and 40 percent of Americans overall) believe that Obama is a socialist.
- 57 percent of Republicans (32 percent overall) believe that Obama is a Muslim
- 45 percent of Republicans (25 percent overall) agree with the Birthers in their belief that Obama was "not born in the United States and so is not eligible to be president"
- 38 percent of Republicans (20 percent overall) say that Obama is "doing many of the things that Hitler did"
- Scariest of all, 24 percent of Republicans (14 percent overall) say that Obama "may be the Antichrist."
I mean, I know a lot of, say, Conservatives in the UK have beliefs I don't agree with. But the vast majority of them, so far as I can tell, just have different experiences to me, and different opinions about how things should be organised. They don't believe that the leader of the oppositon is the fucking antichrist, or other things that can be disproved by 30 seconds with Google.
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This in't about them being stupid, and I don't know where you make this out to be just hicks. We have, here in America, People in Congress saying these things on National TV, pushing resolutions about Birth Certificates and the like. We have a cable channel devoted to passing these ideas along. We see these ideas reporting in the overall media, and not always debunked. These ideas are EVERYWHERE, now.
Moreover -- to argue that we should give people a pass because they are NOT reasoning, not seeking knowledge, seems an odd way to debate an issue that is literally causing people to revert to activities and behaviors we decided to reject as a cultural decades ago. You'll agree that ignorance is no excuse for breaking laws, right? Then, in like fashion, is ignorance no defense against pointing it out.
If, in truth, the core of the GOP and Tea Party ethos is Individual responsibility, then how in all that's Holy can you then say it's someone else's responsibility that they lack these points of basic knowledge? Isn't it incumbent upon them to learn? Isn't it incumbent upon Nationally-known elected leaders they look up to -- far more than just one -- to not promulgate ideas such as Birtherism?
By your lights, I feel like no one should have called out McCarthy, because hey! He was just ignorant. And I fear for a discussion that starts from any premise like that. I strive mightily to be civil in my political discussions, but there's a line that must not be crossed, and people who hold these beliefs are crossing it. I just kicked someone off my Facebook today for wishing the President would die. and that's not the only incident like that's I've personally seen recently.
So, how, exactly, do we approach this, given that I don't even see where Andrew mocked them?
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Man, I don't know, I wish I did. And I agree absolutely with everything you've written here. There's a whole system of shit going down over there and it's coming from voters and media and influential politicans and companies and just everywhere.
I don't think this is "just hicks" - and if it seems like that's what I'm saying, then, I haven't expressed myself very well, because that's almost my point - it's not just hicks. It's not even just voters. It's everything, all pushing this misinformation at once. And in that situation, I think it is tough to make up one's mind.
In fact can I just link this comment, because this says what I want to say:
http://andrewducker.livejournal.com/1998022.html?thread=13454790#t13454790
That's not the same meaning I get from the original post which is just more ammo for the "whoa those dudes are stupid" stuff. Who's writing these surveys which show these results? Who's interpreting them? If I speak to 100 Americans, do 14 of them really think that Obama is Satan's minion?
Easy to post those surveys, easy to believe them, easy to laugh (or get angry) at Americans for believing what the surveys imply they believe. I don't think they believe that, I give them more credit.
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Then we're at a crossroads. They do believe it. I've met them. I've debated them, as much as one can. I had to confront a damned contractor at my house over spewing this stuff! And there are a lot of them, including critical media figures.
Here's a report on another poll. Here's a report on polls from New Jersey on the topic. Another national poll by the same outfit -- and I assure you, I can go on.
This is not a joke. Not a misinterpreation of one poll. It's widespread, it's deeply embedded, and it's real. Please understand that, if nothing else.
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I've met them too, ok? I've had those conversations though not in person, and eep. Good luck with that contractor.
And I know it's widespread and that the polls are, in some ways, accurate. But they're so damn misleading when they're posted without context.
I don't see how you can put an option into a poll of "Obama is the Antichrist" unless you've got an agenda. Every one of those polls is a weapon designed to achieve an agenda, whether that's bolstering a sense of superiority, or cheerleading a fan base, or spreading misinformation.
I'm sure that the basic statistics as shown in the polls are more-or-less accurate. But the stories they tell, embedded in the highly selective context they are posted in, are tapping into large cultural narratives such as:
"Americans are stupid"
"The current government is illegitimate"
"Christians are under attack"
So when I say I give Americans more credit, I mean... it's not about being stupid. Or about having been clearly confronted with nice simple facts about birth certificates and wilfully believing something else.
Am I managing to make any more sense?
no subject