andrewducker | Empathic Failure

Empathic Failure

One of the strange attitudes on the spoilers post is that of people who seem insistent on telling me how I should enjoy movies. That I pay too much attention to plot, or that I just shouldn't enjoy a movie less if I know how it's going to turn out.

This seems to be a common thread in discussion on the internet - one person says "I don't like X." and a bunch of people say that not enjoying X is immature, or that it's not that bad, or that they like X a lot, or that they can't see X at all.

And they don't seem to be providing this information for general cultural reasons, but in denial that the original person is "correct" to feel the way they do in the first place.

It's something I've seen repeatedly, that if unhappy people would just stop being unhappy then everything would be fine. That they shouldn't complain about people doing things they don't like - because if they'd just learn to like people doing things they didn't like then nothing would have to change, and everyone would be happy.

You don't have to agree with people who complain - if you feel differently then you feel differently. You don't have to stop doing the thing they feel unhappy about - that's your judgement to make. But to hear people expressing their feelings on something and then express anger, disbelief or scorn because they have those feelings strikes me as a basic lack of empathy.

It's an attitude that completely baffles me.

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a bit over-sensitive

This is, by the way, one of the things that's getting to me a bit. I don't believe people can be "too sensitive". People may be more or less sensitive than each other, but I don't believe that any particular level of sensitivity is "right".

(Not having a go at you specifically, you're just the fourth person to say it today)

I think that's probably a separate matter. I also think people who, I dunno, cry at TV adverts are over-sensitive - and I'm one of them. Or people who cry when bugs are killed, but see my post about the bee the other day.

I liked that post - I tend to do much the same thing, I hate killing things if I can avoid it. I even rescue spiders and they terrify me!

And I don't think that's over-sensitive. "Over" implies some level that's right, and I can't see how you'd set a baseline.

I was trying to avoid saying "egocentric". It's not all about you.

My emotions aren't about me?

What?

Pulling a quote from a while back:

However, your views on what constitutes a spoiler are such that I think you're being overly sensitive.

Your emotional reaction to being told the ending of a film is most definitely about you.

Your expectation that people should necessarily change their behaviour to avoid upsetting you, regardless of other concerns, would seem to be the epitome of egocentricity.

Your expectation that people should necessarily change their behaviour to avoid upsetting you, regardless of other concerns, would seem to be the epitome of egocentricity.

But I don't think that. I don't remember saying that either. I've said repeatedly, in both posts, that that choice is down to the individual.

Yet you make a value judgement about others by describing them as unempathic when what they do doesn't fit with what you'd like them to do!

He's not describing people who don't do what he wants as unempathic. He's describing people who insist he doesn't or shouldn't feel the way he does as unempathic.

No, I didn't.

I described then as unempathic when their reaction to me saying "I don't enjoy X" was "You're doing it wrong, you emo wuss." - showing a lack of understanding that my emotions were different to theirs, and not because of some problem with me, but because people are different.

Responses of "You may not enjoy X, but I'm fine with it." didn't bother me at all.

At no point did I call people unempathic because they didn't do what I said. Particularly because I never told anyone what to do.

I'm wondering what I did to be quite so misunderstood by you. Can you point out which bits made you believe I was telling you what to do?

Can't speak for

nmg, but the comment in your original post "To me, spoilers are all about politeness" certainly made me think your aim was to ask people to behave in a particular way: the implication was that posting spoilers is impolite, and usually statements like "X is impolite" do carry an implicit "so please don't do X, on the basis of our presumably-shared assumption that being polite is generally a good thing".

In the next paragraph, "And I'd really appreciate you not telling me the details before I do!" also sounded very like a request, even an emphatic one.

I was telling people what I would appreciate. This is a statement about my projected emotional state, based on their actions.

And yes, I believe that if X makes someone unhappy, then it is polite to not do X. I do not believe that politeness is always the correct thing to do - I'm fine with people choosing to be impolite.

I think that if you're sufficiently sensitive that you are frequently upset by people doing things that you can't reasonably expect them not to do then you're over-sensitive. That's not a criticism, it's just that getting upset frequently is bad.

I also think that many people who get upset by things that they can't reasonably expect people not to do nonetheless expect people not to do them, or encourage them to feel guilty if they do*, and that is what people are usually referring to when they call someone over-sensitive as a criticism.

As a more general response to your post, it is sometimes possible to change how much something upsets you, and pointing this out is not the same as saying that it doesn't upset you now.

*I'm not saying that you're doing that, talking in generalities here.

I think that if you're sufficiently sensitive that you are frequently upset by people doing things that you can't reasonably expect them not to do then you're over-sensitive.

For some definition of "reasonable".

I agree entirely with your second paragraph.

it is sometimes possible to change how much something upsets you

In which case advice on how to do this would seem to be the answer.

For some definition of "reasonable".
Right, and obviously that's dependent on the people involved and the context and so on, but it's not entirely subjective in the way that an emotional response is.

In which case advice on how to do this would seem to be the answer.
Agreed. I mean, people were doing that, but it would be better if they did it from a "you might find it less of a problem if you looked at it this way" than a "your way of doing it is mechanistic and inferior, mine is way better".

But it is highly contextual. And being "over sensitive" may merely mean that you should stop hanging around with people who hurt you all the time and spend more time with people who don't.

And yes :->

"I don't believe people can be "too sensitive"."

People can be too anything. If people can be so sensitive so that it impairs their day to day living I would say that is too much. Off course you'd probably need a hell of a long tail to find such a person put there you go...

To risk, unintended but I feel it could be interpreted as such so please excuse me if I've gone and been a product of white male middle class priviledge again, misogyny: Clearly to an extent we do belive some people can be "too sensitive" - I'd say that narratives of HRT for menopausal women include bits about emotional stability. Obviously the argument here is that increased sensitivity (at the extreme) leads to emotional instability.

If people can be so sensitive so that it impairs their day to day living I would say that is too much.

Depends on how much it impairs it. I mean, my day would be better if I wasn't sensitive to idiots saying stupid things, but it's not such a massive impairment that I fancy seeking help with it :->

Similarly, emotional stability is a personal matter too. Everyone is a bit unstable, or we wouldnt have emotion reactions at all. What level of instability we're happy with is for us to decide.

I think that choices about sensitivity levels are personal - there's no _global_ bar for sensitivity, there's what individuals are comfortable with.

You can pretty much take that when I say "impairs day to day living" (or functioning) I mean in a pretty serious regard. As in this person is unable to do things that the majority of society take for granted most days.

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Empathic Failure

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

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Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa

Re: probably repeating things that have already been said, but can't be bothered transplanting my sa