Spoiler Discussion - (spoiler free)

[andrewducker]

In the last couple of days I've been in discussion with a couple of different people about spoilers. One of them about BSG season 2 (now two years old) and the other about HP:Half Blood Prince (now four years old), with them considering that as they'd experienced them years ago, they couldn't possibly be considered spoilers.

Which is the exact opposite of how I feel about it. Because there are movies I still haven't seen fronm the 1950s, where discussion of the twist in the tale would spoil the movie for me. And I'm very aware that the majority of people who go to see the new HP movie won't have read the book.

To me, spoilers are all about politeness. If you tell someone the end/twist of something they didn't know, and will possibly experience in the future, when they didn't want to know, then you've spoiled that experience for them. I remember the feeling of watching Empire Strikes Back and discovering that Han and Chewied were lovers. The shock and surprise at the moment of reveal was an integral part of the experience for me, and taking it away from people that haven't seen the movie yet is just plain rude.

Now, you can argue that it being years old, the chances that people on your friends list haven't seen Empire Strikes Back is low. Which is true if you're posting friends-only and have nobody under the age of 20 on your friends list. But it's not like the olden days, when a movie would appear, and then vanish again, when TV that had made the rounds was lost. Nowadays I can go out and buy box sets for TV made before I was born, and watch it entirely fresh. There are more hours of TV and movies out there than I have time to watch in my whole life, and the chances are that some will be watched years out of synch with their original release. And I'd really appreciate you not telling me the details before I do!

Obviously I consider all of the following to be spoilers. I'm curious whether you do too. If you don't then I'd love to know why...

[Poll #1430090]

Also: NO SPOILERS IN THE COMMENTS!

Comments

[kurosau.livejournal.com]

Be born earlier if you don't want spoilers, otherwise, tough luck. Failing that, I live by no particular rule, although the 10 year rule sounds good. Spoilers are such a minor part of films (usually) that in general, I don't think they're really worth the hide, especially since they actively create barriers to discussing just how awesome something was. Casablanca isn't about its spoilers, it's about just how awesome Rick, Ilsa, Sam, and Renault are.

Beyond the fact that some spoilers should be spoiled so that you can warn your friends away from the crap that is some modern movies.

I actually (barely) consider this to be a growing problem. I want to be able to talk about stuff with my friends, and maybe they haven't experienced it. Maybe they will, or maybe my friend is not so into movies, so he might get around to it in a year. Given how much of our gaming environment comes from being exposed to new media?

Yeah, spoilers aren't anything of import in my book. Especially where Empire is concerned. That wasn't awesome because it was a shocker, it was awesome because it made the story that much more awesome.

[andrewducker]

Casablanca isn't about its spoilers, it's about just how awesome Rick, Ilsa, Sam, and Renault are.

In that case discussing it without spoilers should be trivial!

I want to be able to talk about stuff with my friends, and maybe they haven't experienced it.

Ok. So you have a want (talk about stuff), and they have a want (to experience stuff without knowing the plot in advance). Possibly some sort of discussion about things might be approproate rather than you just prioritising your wants over theirs?

[kurosau.livejournal.com]

The spoilers are necessary if you can't discuss how awesome they and their experiences are without tripping on one.

And as for my attitude about talking about them with my friends, I let friends prioritize in the same way, and they do. I specifically tell people when they ask 'do you want spoilers' that 'sure, I don't mind firewalling' and don't give them crap if they don't ask me beforehand. It isn't a matter of me getting what I want over what they want, it's a matter of redefining the nature of the discussion entirely.

Plus, think about the last film you saw where a spoiler really ruined it for you. I cannot think of one for myself. I can think of a few where the spoiler made me not want to see the film, because I now knew it was crap, but that seems to be a running element in spoiler discussions. If the spoiler is enough to ruin the film experience, chances are it wasn't a good film to begin with. And is it worth the lack of discussion to hold back on spoilers for sub-MST3K-par films?

[andrewducker]

I specifically tell people when they ask 'do you want spoilers'

So you do use spoiler warnings :->

I'm fine with people asking me - I'm happy to be spoilered for various things that I'm not going to see anyway :->

[kurosau.livejournal.com]

Flip it, then reverse it. I specifically tell people when they ask me "hey, do you want spoilers?" that I am fine with spoilers and I want them to feel free to discuss something with me. I'm capable of ignoring them.

My point is not that I'm going to run roughshod over your spoiler concerns, I'll still ask. I just think that they're pointless and get in the way of things, and that if you get something spoiled and it's old, big deal.

[rhythmaning.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure any of them are spoilers, due to the fact that they are all (more or less) publicly known. Well, the ones that I know, at least - I've never seen Battlestar Galactica nor Babylon 5.

I kept away from LJ during the week Torchwood was on to avoid spoilers, though - I was recording it to watch later.

[andrewducker]

I'm not sure what you mean by "publicly known" here. I know a fair number of people from work who are going to see the new Potter movie and have no idea of the ending.

[rhythmaning.livejournal.com]

Really? That surprises me. I take it back!

[andrewducker]

I think us geeks can assume that everyone else pays attention to this kind of thing.

There's a SF society at work, and as far as I can tell 95% of them don't actually read any SF at all. They all just watch Stargate...

[kimberly-a.livejournal.com]

The arguments in comments on this post have convinced me that I was wrong. I now agree with you.

[andrewducker]

Ack - it wasn't here just to persuade you, I was just trying to get my thoughts down.

I'm glad you found the discussion useful though!

[kimberly-a.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't feel that this was aimed at me, so don't worry about that. I just responded to what you and other people had to say about the issue.

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

Harry Potter isn't spoilers. There has been widespread and extremely public discussion about those books since the day after they were released, in each case - if you didn't want to be spoiled you should have hurried up and read the damn things.

[andrewducker]

Except that a lot of people haven't read the books, or hung out in the fannish circles where Harry Potter is dissected to death.

I know several people who have no idea what happens at the end of HBP, and are very much looking forward to the movies...

[mb2u]

I have a "reasonable time" rule: if something has been around long enough for those who are interested to have read/seen/heard it, then spoilers are allowed.

For example, I consider Torchwood: Children of Man to be a spoiler dangerous thing. While it's been broadcast in the UK already, it won't be shown in the US until next Monday, and I imagine other parts of the world have not seen it yet, either. There has not been enough of a reasonable amount of time to have passed for people who would want to see it to do so. So, don't spoil it for the rest of us.

Now, the finale of BSG broadcast months ago. You could argue that people who wanted to see it have by now. It has also been commented on in the press, in public forums, and I think anyone who wanted to know what happened already does. So, spoilers are acceptable.

Also, if something has been around long enough to where the spoiler is part of popular culture (like the ending of Citizen Kane, the "secret" of The Crying Game, or the end of Empire Strikes Back), then it's ridiculous to consider it a spoiler anymore.

[andrewducker]

To reiterate what I've said to numerous people:
If you tell me the twist, ending, or other significant information about a show I have not seen, then you are spoiling it for me.

If I have not seen the Crying Game, then telling me the secret is spoiling the movie for me. There are many movies I have not seen, because my time is finite. I cannot think of a reason why you would want to spoil movies for me. Can you?

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

If you're going to start fucking censoring me you can take your argument and shove it, Andy. :)

[andrewducker]

I said, clearly, in the post, no spoilers. I do not want this to be a discussion that the spoiler-phobic cannot read. You posted a spoiler, I said to repost without it, and then removed the comment so that people wouldn't be spoilered.

I'm very happy to respond to your comment, if you put it back without the spoiler in it...

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

I don't get comments e-mailed to me so I have no way to repost what I wrote. So that's really unreasonable and has really incensed me. You're the one being unreasonable about spoilers that have passed into general knowledge, spoilers that would be regarded as fair game in pub quizzes, in effect, SPOILERS THAT HAVE STOPPED BEING SPOILERS.

I would not do that to you, I'd at least give you a chance to edit your bloody comment, but I see that although you're whining about how selfless you are and how everyone should walk on cotton wool around you because you get all emo when you get films spoiled, you don't have the common decency to allow me the same privilege.

This is way below what I expect of such an intelligent person.

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

I have nothing more to say on the subject, I took the time to make a reasonable point and it got deleted, so I don't see why I should contribute to this any further.

[andrewducker]

I am not being unreasonable. You stated something that would spoil a movie for people who did not already know that information. I know several people that do not know said information. The comment you left would spoil it for them.

I will email you your comment if you like.

And I'm not being rude here - I haven't sworn, and I'm trying to be as helpful as possible.

Now, would you like your comment emailed to you?

[nmg.livejournal.com]

I agree with this comment.

[hawkida.livejournal.com]

John, just because something is generally known by a lot of people doesn't mean that everyone knows it. Why do you want to detract from their potential ability to see the content fresh and without prior knowledge - or if "want to detract" is overstating it, why do you simply not care to respect their wishes?

Movies, books, tv are all a form of craft. Telling me what happens halfway through something I've not yet seen is changing the experience. Some people don't care, others do. Andy specifically asked for no spoilers in the comments and removed whatever it was that you put here that broke that "rule". His LJ, his decision, and it's not rude. If you're incensed by this then you need to chill out, mate.

sheridan is a cylon

[joexnz.livejournal.com]

i don't mind spoilers, if i get really geeky and in depth i'll try to stop and ask, but B5, i'd consider it public knowledge.

but then i watched star wars 4 & 6 and didn't discover for another 10 years there was a number 5. Also i read books and forget how they end, or in the case of the half blood prince remembered the end but not the book. i have a rock, its big enough for me to live under

[mair_in_grenderich]

"I remember the feeling of watching Empire Strikes Back and discovering that Han and Chewied were lovers. The shock and surprise at the moment of reveal was an integral part of the experience for me, and taking it away from people that haven't seen the movie yet is just plain rude."

bah! you've spoilt it for me now!