Speeding Fines

[andrewducker]

octopoid_horror let me know about the Finnish system of administering speeding fines:
KPH over the speed limit x daily salary.

So if you're 10KPH over the speed limit and earn hundreds of thousands of pounds a year, then you're in for quite a large fine.

Apparently this is how all reasonable sized fines work in Finland - they're expressed in days of pay.

I'm in favour.

Comments

[drplokta]

The problem with it is that it seems unjust when a poor man gets fined less for aggravated assault than a rich man gets fined for speeding.

[andrewducker]

If it's punishment then it doesn't seem unjust to me at all - it's a proportion of their spending money that's being taken away from them, and the pain it causes will be proportional to their income, I'd imagine.

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

I concur. It also means that the man who has no money can get away with quite a lot... A system with many flaws.

[andrewducker]

There are minimum fines...

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

So the really poor are discriminated against?

[andrewducker]

In what way?

As you said, a really poor person could otherwise get away with whatever they liked. A minimum fine level, and an alternative of prison in the case of people who cannot pay seems reasonable to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-fine

[anton-p-nym.livejournal.com]

But it addresses the problem of fines being more affordable to the rich than the poor. If fines are intended to deter acts, not scaling them to income disproportionally acts against lower income earners while not deterring high-income earners in the least.

-- Steve thinks no system is going to be perfect.

[pseudomonas.livejournal.com]

Yes, this seems pretty reasonable. I can imagine that some variance from linear in both the speed and the salary might be desirable, but at least this is simple to understand and intuitively fair.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

I don't think I can contain my anger at this suggestion as being fair. I suggest you start driving and see how easy it is to keep to the speed limit. What a pile of utter fucking bollocks.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

As long as you're *going* to have speeding fines, isn't it better to have them not be totally ignorable for the rich and potentially food-threatening to the poor?

I mean, as long as you're going to have fines in the first place.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

Me and Sven were having this arguement a moment ago about what is implied and what is said. I'd like Andy to clarify his position on what he thinks is fair - the concept of speeding fines being charged at an utterly extortionate rate or just means tested fines.

If we take a 20mph zone and suggest someone is trying to keep to it;

1. The speedometer in nearly all cars can be out by as much as 5mph at low speeds and doesn't become accurate until say 30mph. At 70mph it starts to become inaccurate the other way (says you are faster than you actually are). Speed cameras are more accurate, but there is a potential for as much as 10-15% inaccurancy in measuring the speed. So lets say you are clocked at 25mph instead of 20mph. 5mph difference is about 8kph. You are gonna be charged over a weeks salary for the inaccuracy of the equipment you have (this actually opens up car manufacturers for being sued, but that is a seperate arguement).

2. If you are constantly looking at the speedometer, you are a dangerous driver. You should glance at it occasionally and keep your eyes on the road for other users and pedestrians. It is VERY easy to deviate from your speed whilst going over varied terrain.

It seems to be that most people who are utterly in favour of speeding fines are non-drivers. This is a totally fucked up concept in my eyes as they have no experience of the difficulties involved of being a perfect driver. And anyone who suggests driving 5mph under the speed limit instead, good luck because when there is a white van driver in your rear view mirror blearing his horn and potentially causing an accident if you have to break sharp. Hell, most other road users would drive up your arse to get you to do the speed limit as well, let alone the aggressive ones that don't own their vans.

If there is more to the law than Andy has actually bothered to divulge in the interests of causing an argument, then I might change my mind, but on the information given, this is fucking appauling.

[cybik.livejournal.com]

It seems to be that most people who are utterly in favour of speeding fines are non-drivers.

Yeah, because drivers aren't ever going to be in favour of themselves being fined no matter if it's fair or not. People want to keep their money and other people taking it away is almost always seen as "unfair".


I'm not saying the Finnish system is fair and I'm not saying the opposite either because I don't know enough about it or the exact wording of the law and therefore don't feel qualified to make a judgement.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

I'm certainly not in favour of fining *me* for speeding. Other people, sometimes - but it's never the "speeding" that makes me want them to be fined, it's the "dangerous driving" that they're indulging in, in addition to speeding.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

If I was driving dangerously, I am happy to be fined. If I am making an honest mistake because I care more about not running people over than sticking to the limit strictly, I am not. I fail to see the problem with this.

What I am saying is that unless you have sat behind the wheel of a car and driven that you have no concept of the realities of driving. Would you not agree that those with experience in a field should be the ones making laws?

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

But at this point, you're arguing against the existence of fines themselves.

Fines already exist and are already graduated (and, pointedly, cops over here will almost always cite you for the next category down, giving you the error in their measurement devices as an offset in your favour) - this simply changes whether that 8kph is a week's pay *for everyone*, or whether it's a week's pay for you and half a day's for me.

If you are constantly looking at the speedometer, you are a dangerous driver.

If you can't read the spedometer without taking your eyes off the road, your car is badly designed and your spedometer is in the wrong place.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

I do have a problem with the revenue led speed cameras. I have less problem with a police officer making a qualified judgement.

I also have a problem with the idea that 8kph is a reasonable speed difference to take a weeks salary from someone. It is not the concept of means tested fines I dislike, just the strength of the fines being quoted.

"If you can't read the spedometer without taking your eyes off the road, your car is badly designed and your spedometer is in the wrong place."

I'm guessing you don't drive. You cannot ensure you aren't fractionally deviating from the speed limit and still pay full attention to the road ahead.

[andrewducker]

It's the graduated nature of the fines that attracted me. Making them work more fairly seems like a good idea.

I'm also in favour of speeding fines in general - but in a reasonably lenient manner. 15% tolerances is fine by me. It's people doing 45 in a 30 limit I want to stop, not people doing 33.

[khbrown.livejournal.com]

Why are speedometers so inaccurate? Is it a cost thing, that an accurate device is prohibitively expensive, or is there some giant conspiracy of silence on this issue, because neither the car or speed camera manufacturers or the government or whoever wants to admit this?

[matgb]

I drive.

I also lobby for changes in speed limits (both ways) where I think the limits are stupid.

The problem is no the fine, its the stupid limits. A fairer way of fining those that break the democratically set limits seems like a good thing.

If you genuinely think that there should be no speed limits at all then please explain how I, as a driver frequently transporting others including a 5-yr-old child can be safe from idiots?

If there are stupid speed limits (as there are on, say, motorways) then those limits should be changed. But just because the limit is too low doesn't mean we shouldn't punish those who drive at excessive and dangerous speeds.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

I partly agree with you, though I still maintain that when you set a speed limit, people will not only try to drive at that speed, but expect other road users to do so. Consequently, when you drive under the speed limit you are as much of a danger as someone driving over it (on a single lane carriageway that is).

I should point out that I agree that those who drive excessively fast should be punished, but that the punishment outlined by Andy is of itself excessive. The truth is (having looked up on the finnish government website) that this fine only comes into force if you exceed the speed limit by 20 KPH, but there are examples of someone being fined 118,000 euros for going at 82 KPH in a 60, whereas if he was going at 80 KPH he would have been fined 110 euros. There is something wrong here...

[andrewducker]

Nope, sounds right to me. He'd crossed from "possibly just being careless" into "Deliberately driving dangerously faster than allowed". You have to have cut-offs somewhere, and then when people are being that stupid you hit them somewhere hard.

[skington.livejournal.com]

Make it as a proportion of effective pay, including bonuses and commissions, and I'd be in favour. As it is, the sort of wankers who drive BMWs (but I repeat myself) will tend to get under-fined otherwise.

[matgb]

I'm not sure, but I think Finland is one of the countries that both published the amount of tax each person pays each year and taxes all income at the same rate, including bonuses and similar.

Thus it would, if this is the case, include such things.

Strangely, those countries that publish their tax receipts also have almost non-existent gender pay differentials and a significantly lower gini coefficient (last I looked at the numbers), can't think why...

[rhythmaning.livejournal.com]

Although what is the deterrent for those who aren't working? Is there an alternate form of fine or levy?

[andrewducker]

Minimum fine levels.