Responsibility

[andrewducker]

This is inspired by the comment here, where ladysysiphus says "If you have consumed enough alcohol to impair your judgement, I believe you then have to take at least some responsibility for putting yourself in a position where something like this might happen."

[Poll #619684]

Comments

[andrewducker]

I'd certainly never get drunk around you.

One note here (I can't believe I actually turned the computer back on to type this):

If I was _there_, I'd _know_ whether you'd said yes, or not. I wouldn't be relying on hearsay, as to whether you were interested or not - I'd have the evidence of my senses. So there'd be no question of proof involved.

The legal problem that go with "innocent into proven guilty" only occur when there's no useful witnesses available. Which is why I'm actually in favour of CCTV cameras, and think that David Brin's "Transparent Society", where everyone carried constantly recording cameras with them is a great idea. If there was footage to go with the rape cases the conviction rate would be vastly higher, I'm sure, and a bloody good thing too.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

If I was _there_, I'd _know_ whether you'd said yes, or not. I wouldn't be relying on hearsay, as to whether you were interested or not - I'd have the evidence of my senses. So there'd be no question of proof involved.

So? You have just asserted that when a man is accused of rape, his own word is sufficient to establish "reasonable doubt" that while he had sex with a comatose woman, she consented to it. Just on his say so. No other evidence required.

Why should I trust a man who argues that?

[andrewducker]

I've asserted, repeatedly, that for any crime, evidence is needed for a conviction.

I'd like you to come up with an alternate way of holding a court case.

"I hereby accuse Jane of XXXXX. There was nobody else in the room at the time, and she denies it, but I maintain that she did it, and she must pay!"

Now, in your ideal world, how should a court case proceed from this?

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

I've asserted, repeatedly, that for any crime, evidence is needed for a conviction

Actually, you've asserted that for this crime - rape - that if the man claims the woman consented, that's enough by itself to introduce "reasonable doubt" and acquit him. All the evidence says he raped her: but so long as he claims he didn't do it, you accept that as sufficient doubt and say he shouldn't be convicted of rape.

Now, in your ideal world, how should a court case proceed from this?

Interesting that you keep coming up with fictional scenarios in which there is no evidence beyond one person's word, and ignore the real case, in which there is evidence not dependent on one person's word. Interesting in a sickening sort of way, that is.

[andrewducker]

You have just asserted that when a man is accused of rape, his own word is sufficient to establish "reasonable doubt" that while he had sex with a comatose woman, she consented to it. Just on his say so. No other evidence required.

Nope, I'm not saying that - and if she was able to say "I was walking home with him, and then I collapsed unconscious, and then when I woke up, he was having sex with me." then that'd be it - there's no consent, he raped her. Sadly, she can't remember if that happened, or if she shouted "Take me, take me now.", and then has forgotten everything bar 3 seconds of the sex.

Why should I trust a man who argues that?

That sounds to _me_ like "you insist on a higher standard of proof than what is available, there I do not trust anything you say." Which doesn't make any sense to me.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

I'd certainly never get drunk around you.


You could do so in perfect safety. While it's been discussed on my journal, I do not actually believe that the people who have been claiming that a drunk person deserves all they get deserve themselves to be raped while too drunk to resist and see if they like being told their consent can be assumed. I don't believe anyone deserves to be raped, nor that anyone's consent should just be assumed to exist, no matter how drunk they are - not even if that's exactly what they've been arguing for themselves.

[andrewducker]

Which is, as I've repeatedly said, exactly how I feel as well.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Which is, as I've repeatedly said, exactly how I feel as well.

Yet you've been repeatedly arguing that if a man is accused of rape with a woman who is drunk and incapable, his unsupported word that she was conscious and consenting when he had sex with her is sufficient to clear him. So, plainly, that's not how you feel, and trying to claim you do is rank hypocrisy.