andrewducker (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
andrewducker) wrote2002-08-22 03:58 pm
andrewducker) wrote2002-08-22 03:58 pm
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I have no idea how far and fast news spreads from my small corner of the world out to you people in mysterious foreign places (or even further, to Canada, or Wales), so I shall begin by filling you in on the depressing news that has been occurring in England recently.
Two girls went missing from a home. I didn’t get the exact circumstances, but it appears that one moment they were sitting and playing together, the next they were nowhere to be found. This lead to a large outcry by the national press, a police manhunt and all the usual palaver that follows this kind of incident. Two days ago a pair of bodies were found and two people were arrested. Well, first they were ‘helping police with their enquiries’ while their home was searched, and then they were arrested a few hours later. Amongst the items removed from the house were several storage cans and a long wooden pole. One of the detainees was the caretaker of the girls’ school and the other was his girlfriend. The bodies have yet to be identified (although the police are apparently nearly certain of their identity), the man has been charged with murder and the woman has been charge with perverting the course of justice. The man has also been ‘sectioned’ and is now in a secure mental institution.
A few thoughts occurred to me when I read this collection of facts last night; if the bodies haven’t been identified nearly 2 days after they were found, then they must have been very badly disfigured indeed. The cans found on the premises indicates petrol to me, making it seem likely that the bodies were burnt, possibly to prevent identification (of course, the number of other recently missing female children is likely to be zero, making this attempt to cover things up somewhat strange, especially as DNA testing will be able to resolve their identities in a matter of days). The fact that the man is being charged on his own and has been detained for mental reasons, while his girlfriend is being charged solely with perverting the cause of justice makes me think that he committed the crimes, while she was covering up for him. I know from experience that those around the mentally ill generally try to protect them from outsiders “who don’t understand”, her first reflex may have been to cover up for him, and she may then have felt trapped, sure that if she gave him away she’d be arrested too. This is, of course, pure guesswork, at third remove from any actual information, and I’ll be intrigued to see what the actual facts are.
As is usual in these situations, I’m not terribly emotionally moved. I feel sorry for the people involved, think it’s a terrible thing to happen to anyone and wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy, etc. But I don’t feel its any worse than (say) the Palestinian children killed by Israeli shelling, the Israeli children killed by Palestinian suicide bombers, the people starving to death all over Africa, etc. What does bother me significantly more (for reasons that are currently unclear to me) are people’s reactions to the event.
I sat yesterday evening and listened to two people talk about bringing back the death penalty, and there’s been public discussion of that topic by various politicians and other public notables. I have only two contributions to make to the death penalty discussion in this case (1) I don’t believe that this event would not have happened if there was a death penalty for killing children and (2) if killing people is wrong, then killing people is wrong, no matter who does it.
The front pages today were mostly focussed on one fact, not that the police had caught the person responsible for the murders, but that he was off to a mental institute. It was generally deemed (by the tabloid newspapers, that is, not the broadsheets) that this was a way for evil criminals to avoid their rightful punishment and spend a few years in luxury before being set loose on an unsuspecting public. The feeling you got from reading them was that the man wasn’t mad at all, but just an evil person taking advantage of a society that was altogether too forgiving and woolly.
To which my answer is one of stark jaw-dropping incomprehension. This person abducted and killed two children and then disfigured their bodies to such an extent that they cannot be easily identified. Of course he’s mad! Sane people do not do such things. Sane people may defend themselves in a lethal manner. They may even defend their family, friends and country (or belief system) in a lethal manner. Sane antisocial people may even kill other people for some kind of gain. But sane people don’t pick a couple of innocents who are no threat and kill them in an unprovoked attack.
Now, you don’t punish mad people, there’s no point. They’re not going to learn from it, it’s not going to help anyone and it’d just be a way of making yourself feel better about the whole sorry mess. The only reasonable thing to do with mad people is to help them get better. And if you can’t make them better, then to put them somewhere where they can’t hurt anyone. This may not satisfy the emotional need people have to exact painful revenge, but in a modern, reasonable society, it’s the only sane thing to do.
This is exactly what happened with the man who stabbed George Harrison a while ago. He was mentally ill, hadn’t been on the right medication, etc. He was detained, put on medication, sorted out to the point where he was a reasonable human being again and then released. At which point the newspapers went mad. They interviewed Mr Harrison’s family (the man himself having died by that point), who responded with something along the lines of "We weren’t told that he was being released, we’re very upset." Well, I’m sorry you weren’t told he was being released, but to be honest it’s none of your business. He’s not being dealt with to make you feel better, he’s being dealt with to protect the next person. Justice (in my mind) doesn’t work as a revenge system; it aims for deterrent and prevention. It’s supposed to make the world a better place, and I can’t see how punishing those people who either don’t understand or can’t control their actions contributes to this at all.
Two girls went missing from a home. I didn’t get the exact circumstances, but it appears that one moment they were sitting and playing together, the next they were nowhere to be found. This lead to a large outcry by the national press, a police manhunt and all the usual palaver that follows this kind of incident. Two days ago a pair of bodies were found and two people were arrested. Well, first they were ‘helping police with their enquiries’ while their home was searched, and then they were arrested a few hours later. Amongst the items removed from the house were several storage cans and a long wooden pole. One of the detainees was the caretaker of the girls’ school and the other was his girlfriend. The bodies have yet to be identified (although the police are apparently nearly certain of their identity), the man has been charged with murder and the woman has been charge with perverting the course of justice. The man has also been ‘sectioned’ and is now in a secure mental institution.
A few thoughts occurred to me when I read this collection of facts last night; if the bodies haven’t been identified nearly 2 days after they were found, then they must have been very badly disfigured indeed. The cans found on the premises indicates petrol to me, making it seem likely that the bodies were burnt, possibly to prevent identification (of course, the number of other recently missing female children is likely to be zero, making this attempt to cover things up somewhat strange, especially as DNA testing will be able to resolve their identities in a matter of days). The fact that the man is being charged on his own and has been detained for mental reasons, while his girlfriend is being charged solely with perverting the cause of justice makes me think that he committed the crimes, while she was covering up for him. I know from experience that those around the mentally ill generally try to protect them from outsiders “who don’t understand”, her first reflex may have been to cover up for him, and she may then have felt trapped, sure that if she gave him away she’d be arrested too. This is, of course, pure guesswork, at third remove from any actual information, and I’ll be intrigued to see what the actual facts are.
As is usual in these situations, I’m not terribly emotionally moved. I feel sorry for the people involved, think it’s a terrible thing to happen to anyone and wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy, etc. But I don’t feel its any worse than (say) the Palestinian children killed by Israeli shelling, the Israeli children killed by Palestinian suicide bombers, the people starving to death all over Africa, etc. What does bother me significantly more (for reasons that are currently unclear to me) are people’s reactions to the event.
I sat yesterday evening and listened to two people talk about bringing back the death penalty, and there’s been public discussion of that topic by various politicians and other public notables. I have only two contributions to make to the death penalty discussion in this case (1) I don’t believe that this event would not have happened if there was a death penalty for killing children and (2) if killing people is wrong, then killing people is wrong, no matter who does it.
The front pages today were mostly focussed on one fact, not that the police had caught the person responsible for the murders, but that he was off to a mental institute. It was generally deemed (by the tabloid newspapers, that is, not the broadsheets) that this was a way for evil criminals to avoid their rightful punishment and spend a few years in luxury before being set loose on an unsuspecting public. The feeling you got from reading them was that the man wasn’t mad at all, but just an evil person taking advantage of a society that was altogether too forgiving and woolly.
To which my answer is one of stark jaw-dropping incomprehension. This person abducted and killed two children and then disfigured their bodies to such an extent that they cannot be easily identified. Of course he’s mad! Sane people do not do such things. Sane people may defend themselves in a lethal manner. They may even defend their family, friends and country (or belief system) in a lethal manner. Sane antisocial people may even kill other people for some kind of gain. But sane people don’t pick a couple of innocents who are no threat and kill them in an unprovoked attack.
Now, you don’t punish mad people, there’s no point. They’re not going to learn from it, it’s not going to help anyone and it’d just be a way of making yourself feel better about the whole sorry mess. The only reasonable thing to do with mad people is to help them get better. And if you can’t make them better, then to put them somewhere where they can’t hurt anyone. This may not satisfy the emotional need people have to exact painful revenge, but in a modern, reasonable society, it’s the only sane thing to do.
This is exactly what happened with the man who stabbed George Harrison a while ago. He was mentally ill, hadn’t been on the right medication, etc. He was detained, put on medication, sorted out to the point where he was a reasonable human being again and then released. At which point the newspapers went mad. They interviewed Mr Harrison’s family (the man himself having died by that point), who responded with something along the lines of "We weren’t told that he was being released, we’re very upset." Well, I’m sorry you weren’t told he was being released, but to be honest it’s none of your business. He’s not being dealt with to make you feel better, he’s being dealt with to protect the next person. Justice (in my mind) doesn’t work as a revenge system; it aims for deterrent and prevention. It’s supposed to make the world a better place, and I can’t see how punishing those people who either don’t understand or can’t control their actions contributes to this at all.
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Well, I think you're contradicting yourself here. And I think it's a sign of maddness in itself. What's the point in this? If you've got a mad person, you help them become sane? Or you lock them up?
I think that you should look at danger here. there are dangerous people across the road from me throwing petrolbombs at each other. (not right now, but there will be in about an hour). If I could have them all killed, or even kill them all myself, I would. They're dangerous, and disruptive and have no part in soceity.
Please dont' confuse this with a lack of compassion for the insane. If someone's insane, and not a danger to others... if there's judged to be little danger to others... then please try to help them get better, and make the world a better place. help them to join soceity.
If there's a chance that they can be destructive in soceity, then toss em into the sea with some concrete shoes.
Look at the (short term) damage which the death of these 2 girls has caused. Not just the loss of 2 innocent lives. No, the real damage here is to soceity. Every single person in the Uk believes just that little bit less that it's safe to go out at nights. And this belief is spiralling into people carrying weapons, and even people feeling that they need to attack others, in order to defend themselves. Soceity has suffered from every violent attack in the past decade, hell, in the last century. And as a result of these attacks from dangerous members of soceity, it has degraded.
I judge their murderer on the same merits that I judge all people. Danger. Danger posed to firstly myself, and secondly to soceity. (murderer's name) failed on both counts. So do the yobs who throw petrol bombs. And I'd like both of them to be killed. I won't mince words.
On a sidenote, Andrew, I thought you knew better than suggesting murder is wrong. Morals? You? Please. Murder, as with all crimes, is sufficiently inconvenient as to remove it from the rational options for problem solving.
Adam
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