Abortion

[andrewducker]

I say that I'm pro-choice, but the truth is that I'm actually anti-abortion. Rather, I'm pro-making sure that women have the resources and education available so that there's no need for abortions save those performed for medical reasons. The best way to stop abortions is to stop the need for abortions -- not with abstinence education that tells girls they're naughty for getting knocked up but doesn't tell them how to prevent it, but with realistic sex education and more resources for young women who find themselves pregnant and unable to afford prenatal care and postnatal expenses of raising a child

Which pretty much sums up how I feel.

Stolen from the ever-vigilant Lady Sysiphus.

Comments

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Well, that's an interesting interpretation of the discussion.

Here's how I understood it:

You claimed that "rights" were too fuzzy and the universe didn't work like that.

I pointed out that in practical terms, the universe was working like that: we live in a reality where women who want to have abortions can have them. And do.

You said that wasn't reality, it was a social agreement.

I asked (tongue in cheek, I admit) that if you believed women weren't "really" having abortions, just a social agreement, where did you think all those babies who were "really" being born were being warehoused?

Reality is fine with the idea of abortion by choice because abortion by choice is part of reality. Deny that, and I have to ask you: where are all those foetuses who aren't "really" being aborted going?

[andrewducker]

I believe the abortions are hapoening, but whether it's "right" or "wrong" is nothing to do with reality.

Rights and morals being something that exist purely in mental space and having as little to do with anything in reality as possible.

We have a social agreement that allows people to have abortions, but that social agreement doesn't mean that it's somehow part of the fabric of the universe that a woman has a right to choose.

(This isn't helped by the fact that I don't really believe in rights at all and nowadays find arguing about them a bit like arguing about whether Santa Claus could beat up The Tooth Fairy)

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

We have a social agreement that allows people to have abortions, but that social agreement doesn't mean that it's somehow part of the fabric of the universe that a woman has a right to choose.

Well, that depends how you define the fabric of the universe, doesn't it? If women getting to choose to have abortions in reality are somehow separated out from the fabric of the universe, you're right. If the fabric of the universe includes everything just the way it is, you're wrong.

whether Santa Claus could beat up The Tooth Fairy

Santa Claus could beat up the Tooth Fairy, but wouldn't, because he'd be afraid of losing his licence to operate elves, without which his toy manufacturing empire would crumble.

[andrewducker]

If women getting to choose to have abortions in reality are somehow separated out from the fabric of the universe, you're right. If the fabric of the universe includes everything just the way it is, you're wrong.

Not whether they get to choose (that's a physical act), but whether them doing so is right.

To choose an over-the-top example Hitler killed 6 million jews - was he right to do so?

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Not whether they get to choose (that's a physical act), but whether them doing so is right.

Ah, I see what you mean. No, values of right or wrong are not part of the fabric of the universe.

What about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, then?

[andrewducker]

Well, being agnostic I should theoretically hold to the claim that they may, or may not exist, that it's impossible to prove that things don't exist and that in an infinite universe anything is possible.

But let's say that I'm fairly sceptical.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Me too... ;-)