Abortion

[andrewducker]

I say that I'm pro-choice, but the truth is that I'm actually anti-abortion. Rather, I'm pro-making sure that women have the resources and education available so that there's no need for abortions save those performed for medical reasons. The best way to stop abortions is to stop the need for abortions -- not with abstinence education that tells girls they're naughty for getting knocked up but doesn't tell them how to prevent it, but with realistic sex education and more resources for young women who find themselves pregnant and unable to afford prenatal care and postnatal expenses of raising a child

Which pretty much sums up how I feel.

Stolen from the ever-vigilant Lady Sysiphus.

Comments

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

After I posted that comment I went away to see if reality was taken, and it is. It just occurred to me it would be really cool to have a username that meant I could post comments saying "I disagree with you - Reality".

But what I meant was, that in this country and in the US, and in many other countries round the world, we have effectively got a reality where "a woman's right to choose" operates just fine: limited, in fact, only by our technological capacity. So, well, reality disagrees with you: the universe deals with women having the right to choose an abortion or not just fine.

[andrewducker]

That's not reality, it's a social agreement by some people.

I have pretty much no interest in "what the law says" when it comes to making moral decisions. No more than I have any interest in what The Bible says or what my father says. It's just another opinion about what's right and wrong.

If you start depending on The Law as your guide to what reality is like then you'd have to stop asking for changes to it...

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

So women aren't really having abortions, they've just got a social agreement to pretend they do? Where do the babies get warehoused when they're born in your "reality", since in your view the abortions aren't "really" happening?

If you start depending on The Law as your guide to what reality is like then you'd have to stop asking for changes to it...

Who said I did that? reality?

[andrewducker]

I said that _rights_ were too black and white, and that reality wasn't as simple as that. You disagreed and said the universe was as simple as that.

Whether people are having abotions isn't in question, whether foetuses have rights (and whether mothers have them) is.

You then said that reality was fine with the right to abortion as it was legal here. Which indicated that you believed that legality was somehow a defining force in reality.

Which is odd, because I wouldn't have thought you'd think that at all...

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Well, that's an interesting interpretation of the discussion.

Here's how I understood it:

You claimed that "rights" were too fuzzy and the universe didn't work like that.

I pointed out that in practical terms, the universe was working like that: we live in a reality where women who want to have abortions can have them. And do.

You said that wasn't reality, it was a social agreement.

I asked (tongue in cheek, I admit) that if you believed women weren't "really" having abortions, just a social agreement, where did you think all those babies who were "really" being born were being warehoused?

Reality is fine with the idea of abortion by choice because abortion by choice is part of reality. Deny that, and I have to ask you: where are all those foetuses who aren't "really" being aborted going?

[andrewducker]

I believe the abortions are hapoening, but whether it's "right" or "wrong" is nothing to do with reality.

Rights and morals being something that exist purely in mental space and having as little to do with anything in reality as possible.

We have a social agreement that allows people to have abortions, but that social agreement doesn't mean that it's somehow part of the fabric of the universe that a woman has a right to choose.

(This isn't helped by the fact that I don't really believe in rights at all and nowadays find arguing about them a bit like arguing about whether Santa Claus could beat up The Tooth Fairy)

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

We have a social agreement that allows people to have abortions, but that social agreement doesn't mean that it's somehow part of the fabric of the universe that a woman has a right to choose.

Well, that depends how you define the fabric of the universe, doesn't it? If women getting to choose to have abortions in reality are somehow separated out from the fabric of the universe, you're right. If the fabric of the universe includes everything just the way it is, you're wrong.

whether Santa Claus could beat up The Tooth Fairy

Santa Claus could beat up the Tooth Fairy, but wouldn't, because he'd be afraid of losing his licence to operate elves, without which his toy manufacturing empire would crumble.

[andrewducker]

If women getting to choose to have abortions in reality are somehow separated out from the fabric of the universe, you're right. If the fabric of the universe includes everything just the way it is, you're wrong.

Not whether they get to choose (that's a physical act), but whether them doing so is right.

To choose an over-the-top example Hitler killed 6 million jews - was he right to do so?

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Not whether they get to choose (that's a physical act), but whether them doing so is right.

Ah, I see what you mean. No, values of right or wrong are not part of the fabric of the universe.

What about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, then?

[andrewducker]

Well, being agnostic I should theoretically hold to the claim that they may, or may not exist, that it's impossible to prove that things don't exist and that in an infinite universe anything is possible.

But let's say that I'm fairly sceptical.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Me too... ;-)