Abortion

[andrewducker]

I say that I'm pro-choice, but the truth is that I'm actually anti-abortion. Rather, I'm pro-making sure that women have the resources and education available so that there's no need for abortions save those performed for medical reasons. The best way to stop abortions is to stop the need for abortions -- not with abstinence education that tells girls they're naughty for getting knocked up but doesn't tell them how to prevent it, but with realistic sex education and more resources for young women who find themselves pregnant and unable to afford prenatal care and postnatal expenses of raising a child

Which pretty much sums up how I feel.

Stolen from the ever-vigilant Lady Sysiphus.

Comments

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Ah, I definitely should have added "non-independent" and "inside someone else's body" to that particular comment.

[andrewducker]

The two aren't the same.

At, for instance, 26 weeks of gestation, around 95% of babies _are_ capable of independent life. They just happen to be inside a woman.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Quite true, but the rights and life of the actual, fully sentient person with actually memories and experiences IMHO, completely and totally outweighs any rights this being has. Such beings are still part of someone else's body and so should not in my view be considered as separate organisms in any legal or moral sense.

[andrewducker]

Certainly, should it be the case of "life of the mother or life of the 26 week-old foetus" the mother wins every time.

But when it comes to "Both live, or just one lives, at the whim of the mother, for no medical reason" then I'm not there.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

But when it comes to "Both live, or just one lives, at the whim of the mother, for no medical reason" then I'm not there.

Then when you get pregnant, you can choose not to have an abortion. I'm completely supportive of that option. Until then, it's not really relevant to you, is it?

[andrewducker]

And if I decide to kill someone, you have no say in the matter.

Ok?

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

If you decide to join the military, I certainly don't, no.

If you decide to commit a crime, any lawabiding person does, yes.

And this has what to do with your choice not to have an abortion if you get pregnant?

[andrewducker]

To reply a little less abruptly - I firmly believe that once they pass around 25 weeks of gestation they are alive. And unless there's a good reason for them dying, they shouldn't have to.

Which doesn't tend to be a problem, what with the vast majority of abotions happening much, much earlier than that.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

To reply a little less abruptly - I firmly believe that once they pass around 25 weeks of gestation they are alive.

And you are fully entitled to believe exactly what you like.

[andrewducker]

And you're entitled to believe what you like.

I didn't think our right to free thought was in question here.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Obviously it's not.

[andrewducker]

Then why tell me what I was allowed to believe?

Seems like an odd thing to do.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Does it?

[andrewducker]

Stepping back _slightly_ from sarcascm, we were discussing a matter of morals. To then say "Well, yes, you're allowed to believe that" doesn't add anything to the discussion. Morals are intrinsically subjective. We can all believe anything.

Surely the point is either to engage in a meaningful way and persuade the other that ones viewpoint is correct, or to argue back and forth until both of us are agreed on a reasonable belief is the point? Thesis + Antithesis eventually reaching some kind of Synthesis.

To say "Believe what you like" is an abandonment of the debating process, saying "You may believe as you wish, I shall believe as I wish and all discussion of the topic is outwith the area of possible discussion" in which case why join in the discussion in the first place?

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

You made what appeared to be a "factual statement" - not a moral point - when you stated "I firmly believe that once they pass around 25 weeks of gestation they are alive."

Well: yes. And?

I responded to this assertion as I would have responded to the assertion that "I firmly believe that God created the world in six days exactly as described in Genesis" and for much the same reason - it's an assertion that's completely undisprovable. If that's what you believe, that's what you believe. My belief is completely orthogonal to yours: I see no point in continuing the discussion.

[andrewducker]

Your belief is at right angles to mine? Do you mean diametrically opposed? Or am I being confused?

I've seen babies that are 25 weeks from conception. Definitely alive. Not coping 100% well with the world, but then who does when they're born?

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

No, I mean at right angles. That's what orthogonal means.

[andrewducker]

I knew that, I just can't see how your view is orthogonal to mine.

Aah, is it because we're using two criteria that aren't at all connected to each other?

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

If I were arguing for or against the point at which a foetus "really" becomes alive, we'd be either in agreement or in opposition.

But I'm not: I'm arguing for a woman's right to choose. This is orthogonal to the argument about the point at which a foetus "really" becomes alive.

[andrewducker]

Aaah.

I'm all in favour of rights, up to a point. But black and white statements of rights usually don't work for me. I don't think the universe is anywhere near that simple on the levels we work on.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Reality would seem to disagree with you.

[andrewducker]

Further to the above, I'm in favour of a woman's right to choose.

And a baby's right to life.

Sometimes, if you look at it in certain ways, those two rights conflict.

[cx650.livejournal.com]

I have no problem with a woman's right to choose. Until it conflicts with the right to life of the unborn. My question is trying to establish when that is most likely to be so.

[green-amber.livejournal.com]

I'm tempted to add that at 26 years the average male is also capable of independent life & is also sometimes inside a woman. Does that mean we can kil 'em (seh said brightly ? :-)

[andrewducker]

Being 31 I'm fine with that :->