You and me. We're in this together.

[andrewducker]

John Gilmore: I was ejected from a plane for wearing "Suspected Terrorist" button.

I'm glad that someone has the moral pigheadedness to stand up for themselves. Because I suspect that I wouldn't.

Comments

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Than I asked questions designed to show how those lines were not actually lines you wanted to draw.

Indeed. This is a common tactic among debaters: I made a statement about A: you offered situations B and C that you claimed were the same as A, though in fact they were not, and the standard follow-up is: "Well, you don't agree with B and C, so how can you agree with A, because A B and C are the same." To which the only possible response is: the lines you drew are a completely different shape from the lines I was drawing.

They obviously weren't "requests", if he was kicked off for wearing them, and if he was threatened with federal law enforcement action.

This is where being an American is a disadvantage to you. The BA staff were all British. The BA staff asked him politely (twice) to put the badge in his pocket. When he refused the Captain's request, he was asked to leave the plane. That is the sole limit of the Captain's authority. The BA staff had no power to threaten him with federal law enforcement action: that must have been American airport staff. God knows why they bothered.

And again, this is not the line you actually believe in, because if the member of staff had politely requested that he remove a turban, you would be outraged.

Except that I disagreed that a turban is identical with a badge. You see where drawing the wrong lines can lead you?

No, but getting off a bus mid-way through can be a major hassle. And it could easily be hours into a bus ride when the button wearer gets up to go to the restroom, and someone further back notices said button.

True - I was thinking of British buses, rather than American buses. There is less distance between towns/cities in the UK than in the US, and getting off a bus midway in a journey might be a hassle but wouldn't be a disaster.

[novalis.livejournal.com]

I made a statement about A: you offered situations B and C that you claimed were the same as A, though in fact they were not, and the standard follow-up is: "Well, you don't agree with B and C, so how can you agree with A, because A B and C are the same." To which the only possible response is: the lines you drew are a completely different shape from the lines I was drawing.

I tried to read the lines from your words -- you said
There's nothing anyone can do about their ethnic origin, nor should they wish to: but anyone can decide to wear, or not to wear, a badge.

This said to me that the issue was whether or not it was a "choice" (certainly a line I've heard before...)

The BA staff had no power to threaten him with federal law enforcement action: that must have been American airport staff. God knows why they bothered.

Gilmore said that the Captain did this. I see no reason to disbelieve him -- it must have sounded as absurd to him as it does to you.

I said: And again, this is not the line you actually believe in, because if the member of staff had politely requested that he remove a turban, you would be outraged.

yonmei replied:Except that I disagreed that a turban is identical with a badge. You see where drawing the wrong lines can lead you?

I think you are changing your lines -- you said that the issue was not one of the content of Gilmore's action, but of his refusal to obey a polite request. I pointed out that you think the content is important, since you would think differently of a polite request to remove a turban.

True - I was thinking of British buses, rather than American buses. There is less distance between towns/cities in the UK than in the US, and getting off a bus midway in a journey might be a hassle but wouldn't be a disaster.

I can certainly think of many cases in which it might be a disaster -- if the person was being met, or was on the way to a wedding or to catch a plane, or to see a dying relative....