andrewducker (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
andrewducker) wrote2010-06-22 12:01 pm
andrewducker) wrote2010-06-22 12:01 pm
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I don't even know Duruflé.
But I think Messiaen is dreadful.
But I think Messiaen is dreadful.
There may be no objective (in the sense of would convince a ghost of perfect emptiness) beauty. Nevertheless there are facts about what sort of thing most people within a culture like, plus maybe some things that most humans like. Similarly, there are facts about what people don't like (and in fact, I'd say there are more likely to be cross-cultural facts about that).
These facts do serve the same sort of role as an objective standard in a lot of the cases of interest. I don't see why everyone is getting so excited about that fact.
These facts do serve the same sort of role as an objective standard in a lot of the cases of interest. I don't see why everyone is getting so excited about that fact.
Edited 2010-06-22 22:06 (UTC)
Because the fact that these subjective factors serve as an objective standard - for whatever reason that is - is one that makes an awful lot of people desperately unhappy. Deeply, suicidally unhappy in some cases. It means that an awful lot of people don't get what they want in life. They don't get the jobs they deserve. They don't get the friends they could have in school. They don't get the lovers they might have, had they had confidence in their own appearance, their own beauty. Society tells them they're ugly, and they believe it.
Can you tell me what purpose that serves?
Can you tell me what purpose that serves?
...and thus to me 'You're all beautiful' is like saying 'You'll all write wonderful songs' in a world where songwriting is obsessed over and excessively used to judge people's worth.
Better to change the perception and see that while not everyone has it, it's only one of many things that make people who they are.
Better to change the perception and see that while not everyone has it, it's only one of many things that make people who they are.
I didn't say it served a purpose, I said there were such facts about our preferences.
In some cases, they are probably facts because they do serve some sort of purpose (maybe an evolutionary one, for example), but not necessarily a moral purpose.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't seek to change these facts (after all, I agree are contingent) or to put them in a proper context (that is, to say that someone's worth is not defined by their beauty) where they cause harm to people, but neither do I see the value in denying that they currently exist.
In some cases, they are probably facts because they do serve some sort of purpose (maybe an evolutionary one, for example), but not necessarily a moral purpose.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't seek to change these facts (after all, I agree are contingent) or to put them in a proper context (that is, to say that someone's worth is not defined by their beauty) where they cause harm to people, but neither do I see the value in denying that they currently exist.
I don't think people on this thread have overtly denied it, I think there's a tacit denial implicit in the claim that everyone likes something different: of course they do, but our likes and dislikes cluster around some common standards. I think those standards are what ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
momentsmusicaux is talking about.
momentsmusicaux is talking about.I don't know why you haven't replied to my comment yet, but if you don't want to address all of it at least tell me what harm it does to tell people they're beautiful. How does that harm them and society? I really want to know what your reasoning is so I can attempt to understand your statements.
And I'm saying that those standards are not objective, and calling into question what purpose there could possibly be in framing them as being so.
We could absolutely decide to have a semantic argument about whether beauty is (a) in the eye of the beholder or (b) the number of dots above the line you draw in an arbitrary place on the chart of 'common standards', but I don't think that serves much of a purpose either.
Let me rephrase my previous question: What harm does it do to tell people that they should love their faces and bodies and find beauty in them? What harm can it possibly do to tell people that they are beautiful?
We could absolutely decide to have a semantic argument about whether beauty is (a) in the eye of the beholder or (b) the number of dots above the line you draw in an arbitrary place on the chart of 'common standards', but I don't think that serves much of a purpose either.
Let me rephrase my previous question: What harm does it do to tell people that they should love their faces and bodies and find beauty in them? What harm can it possibly do to tell people that they are beautiful?
I certainly wouldn't love her any less, but if she grew up to be short and round with gap teeth and spots and had her heart set on a tanned adonis football player, I'd have to tell her she's probably going to be disappointed. It *may* be he falls for her sense of humour or her intelligence or her general charm and poise. But saying she has an equal chance to the leggy blonde would be a cruel lie.
It's like I said about the American notion that all can succeed -- it sets you up for a fall and the ensuing disappointment is all the more unbearable.
It's like I said about the American notion that all can succeed -- it sets you up for a fall and the ensuing disappointment is all the more unbearable.
We're dealing with a word that's very loaded and I feel we're perhaps bringing different ideas to it.
Say 'wonderful'. I have no problem at all saying that everyone is wonderful, and will be especially wonderful to some other person.
Say 'wonderful'. I have no problem at all saying that everyone is wonderful, and will be especially wonderful to some other person.
But everyone does have it. You do not love a person that you do not find beautiful. You do not look at a face that you consider to be ugly and love that face's mouth and want to kiss it, love that face's eyes and want to stare into them forever. You find beautiful the things you love.
Let's say we are trying to define beauty here. Why would you want to define it in this way? Why would you want to take one of the tenants of our society, one of the pillars on which it stands, and rather than pull everyone up on their own pedestal, with their own admirers and their own view, you would dig holes for them and tell them to get used to it, and remember that they have loads of other things going for them and that they don't actually need that view? What purpose does that serve? Why does that need to happen?
Let's say we are trying to define beauty here. Why would you want to define it in this way? Why would you want to take one of the tenants of our society, one of the pillars on which it stands, and rather than pull everyone up on their own pedestal, with their own admirers and their own view, you would dig holes for them and tell them to get used to it, and remember that they have loads of other things going for them and that they don't actually need that view? What purpose does that serve? Why does that need to happen?
But that's a terrible sentiment! I'm not espousing lying to kids, but it's not lying to tell your daughter she's beautiful and that other people will think that as well, no matter what she looks like. You don't know what this tanned football player fancies - if she's going to get her heart broken she might as well understand that it's because maybe she's not his particular brand of beautiful, not because she's just plain ugly and won't have a chance with anybody.
Don't you dare try to turn this into a semantic argument. We are not arguing about different concepts here - we are both talking about physical appearance, about what society says about physical appearance, what the majority say about physical appearance, and whether that standard can be considered to be an objective concept and whether doing so is harmful or otherwise.
I don't understand how you commented supportively on my post yesterday and yet you can say things like this. If you want to change things you're going to need to do things that make you uncomfortable, including look at your definition of 'beautiful' and the way it's used in society and then changing how you use it.
I'm not going to say 'wonderful' because that's not what I mean. I mean 'beautiful' because I believe that everybody is attractive to somebody, and that telling them that is not setting them up for failure but instead hopefully contributing to a positive self-image so that they can find that someone (if they want to) someday.
Criticize the American dream all you like but I don't understand how telling someone something positive about themselves is ensuring disappointment. That seems defeatist and untrue.
I'm not going to say 'wonderful' because that's not what I mean. I mean 'beautiful' because I believe that everybody is attractive to somebody, and that telling them that is not setting them up for failure but instead hopefully contributing to a positive self-image so that they can find that someone (if they want to) someday.
Criticize the American dream all you like but I don't understand how telling someone something positive about themselves is ensuring disappointment. That seems defeatist and untrue.
I agree that those standards aren't objective (but that's not news: I'm not convinced there are objective standards in many fields), although they're pretty pervasive. In common with morality, I think it makes sense for momentsmusicaux to use ordinary language about those standards.
I don't think it does any harm to tell people that they should love their own faces and bodies.
If people were kept in blissful isolation before releasing them into the cruel world, I think it might do some harm to give them unrealistic expectations about how other the world would rate them aesthetically. But in fact that hardly ever happens: most people are only too aware of where they stand: it cannot do them harm to tell them they are beautiful by the standards of their society, but it probably doesn't do much good either.
OTOH there's telling someone they're beautiful as an expression of your personal preference or affection for them, which I think does do them some good (assuming they care about what you think).
momentsmusicaux to use ordinary language about those standards.I don't think it does any harm to tell people that they should love their own faces and bodies.
If people were kept in blissful isolation before releasing them into the cruel world, I think it might do some harm to give them unrealistic expectations about how other the world would rate them aesthetically. But in fact that hardly ever happens: most people are only too aware of where they stand: it cannot do them harm to tell them they are beautiful by the standards of their society, but it probably doesn't do much good either.
OTOH there's telling someone they're beautiful as an expression of your personal preference or affection for them, which I think does do them some good (assuming they care about what you think).
I am short and round with wonky teeth and I traditionally get exactly what I want - including conventionally gorgeous adonises (or rather aphrodites), should the mood take me.
Now, I know what you'll say - that's because I'm confident, charming, and let's not forget exceptionally talented.
And I used to agree, but then I realised that that was bullshit. There is singly no chance in hell that a gorgeous girl would turn around to me and tell me how sexy I was if I wasn't able to believe it of myself. No way in hell.
Furthermore, this whole concept is deeply sexist, and reeks of the P-word. Nobody has ever questioned whether 'ugly' dudes have just as good a chance of pulling gorgeous women as good looking ones - it's demonstrably the case that they can. Why should men shoot for the stars and women dial back their expectations?
Now, I know what you'll say - that's because I'm confident, charming, and let's not forget exceptionally talented.
And I used to agree, but then I realised that that was bullshit. There is singly no chance in hell that a gorgeous girl would turn around to me and tell me how sexy I was if I wasn't able to believe it of myself. No way in hell.
Furthermore, this whole concept is deeply sexist, and reeks of the P-word. Nobody has ever questioned whether 'ugly' dudes have just as good a chance of pulling gorgeous women as good looking ones - it's demonstrably the case that they can. Why should men shoot for the stars and women dial back their expectations?
Well I certainly wouldn't say she doesn't stand a chance with anybody!
But it's about probabilities. Take just one simple component, like height. If you're a really tall woman or a really short man you're not going to have as big a pool of people who might find you beautiful. I doubt anything is going to change that.
But it's about probabilities. Take just one simple component, like height. If you're a really tall woman or a really short man you're not going to have as big a pool of people who might find you beautiful. I doubt anything is going to change that.
> Nobody has ever questioned whether 'ugly' dudes have just
as good a chance of pulling gorgeous women as good looking ones
Of course they have. And short ones too.
as good a chance of pulling gorgeous women as good looking ones
Of course they have. And short ones too.
You may not be able to widen the pool to include as many people as are going to buy into the lowest common denominator ideals of beauty, but there is a hell of a lot that can change the size of that pool by a huge amount. See my comment re: 'ugly' guys getting 'hot' chicks when it doesn't ever really work the other way round.
What? Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me here? If you're disagreeing, you're wrong. Famously ugly men almost always marry famously beautiful women.
Yes but they're still ugly! And Dudley Moore may have been a hit with women but he had other things to make up for it that every short guy has going on as a sideline.
There's double standards. I may be guilty of them. I'm going to go away and think about it but I'm mostly going to go to bed because it's late.
And you wouldn't believe how many good-looking women I've not dared go anywhere near.
There's double standards. I may be guilty of them. I'm going to go away and think about it but I'm mostly going to go to bed because it's late.
And you wouldn't believe how many good-looking women I've not dared go anywhere near.
But Andrew Lloyd Webber is plug ugly by anyone's standards.
I know someone who proves that statement is wrong.
I know someone who proves that statement is wrong.
Again you've got a single point of measurement there. And music is actually a great example. People are told that their music is shit because it's not bland pop music that will be bought by 12-year-old-girls. But not everyone likes bland pop music. Some people like rap. Some people like heavy metal. Some people like psychedelic jazz. The only way to find out whether a song you've written is music is liked by people is to get it out there and have people listen to it - and then it doesn't matter if 99% of people hate it with a fiery passion, if you can find a tiny audience.
There is almost nobody out there whose face is so unusual that nobody will look at it and think "Gosh, they're gorgeous". There are plenty of people that aren't "mainstream", but telling people that they're ugly and will therefore never find anyone because they're not mainstream is what causes all of the body issues.
"Sorry, nobody likes breasts that shape. This year, noses are 3mm shorter than that. You have freckles - everyone hates freckles." - this leads to people who loathe their bodies, when actually there are plenty of people out there who don't care that your breasts are slightly uneven, your nose is above average and love freckles.
There is almost nobody out there whose face is so unusual that nobody will look at it and think "Gosh, they're gorgeous". There are plenty of people that aren't "mainstream", but telling people that they're ugly and will therefore never find anyone because they're not mainstream is what causes all of the body issues.
"Sorry, nobody likes breasts that shape. This year, noses are 3mm shorter than that. You have freckles - everyone hates freckles." - this leads to people who loathe their bodies, when actually there are plenty of people out there who don't care that your breasts are slightly uneven, your nose is above average and love freckles.
Those would largely be _famous_ ugly men.
I've seen men-of-non-mainstream-looks have just as many problems in dating as women-of-non-mainstream-looks.
I've seen men-of-non-mainstream-looks have just as many problems in dating as women-of-non-mainstream-looks.
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