Sodomy non sapiens

[andrewducker]

A friend of mine has a daughter at school and is wondering whether they should take Latin - whether they would find it actually useful later on for other subjects.  They think that it would be useful for science, and also for wanting to be a doctor or a vet.

Anyone got any opinions on this?

Comments

[marrog.livejournal.com]

I think it's a really cool thing to have learned, and there are many occasions in my life where I wished I'd had the opportunity to learn it.

But then, that's me.

[andrewducker]

Absolutely - as a linguist I'd expect nothing less!

I can totally see people being fascinated by language, and Latin/Greek contribute massively to language. If someone is interested I certainly wouldn't stop them.

I know that latin used to be vital for people studying medicine - I'm just not sure that's still the case.

[marrog.livejournal.com]

With K being a strong scientist, and if we're looking for a language that ties into that, she might well be better off with German?

[andrewducker]

Well, I'd go with whatever they fancied - if they have to take a second language (and I suspect they do) then looking at the options and seeing what seemed most interesting would be my preferred method :->

If there was the choice of doing something unusual (Chinese, Spanish, etc.) I'd be more tempted by that, myself.

[marrog.livejournal.com]

If she's doing all three sciences it's very unlikely she'll have the column space for a second language, because at least one of those sciences will clash with it. Certainly in my school you actually didn't have space for more than two of anything, and I was unable to take both art and music at Standard Grade, but that was because it was so small. In K's case I would guess that if she's taking History, Physics, Chemistry and Biology, she will only be in one language. Let's have a look...

Assuming 10 S Grades (which is two more than I did, but I think they do 10 at H's):

1. English
2. Maths
3. Chemistry
4. Physics
5. Biology
6. History
7. Language 1
8. Some kind of business-y computer-y thing (in my day I think it was Office and Information Studies, Computing, Accounting or Business Science)
9. Some kind of creative thing (Art, Music, C&D, and usually PE and Home Ec are options here too)
10. ...Hm... maybe there would be the opportunity for another Language here, but it would make for a pretty heavy courseload doing nothing but Sensible subjects. I would also personally err on the side of another social science ie Modern Studies rather than another language, but that's my personal view on what's actively useful coming in there. I guess if she does Latin in one place a modern language would also be sensible.

[drplokta]

Depends on the school -- I did Latin and French 'O' Levels, as well as three sciences and two maths. But that was a while ago, as you can tell from them being 'O' Levels and not GCSEs.

[poisonduk.livejournal.com]

Second language is compulsory - She's on her fifth year of French now as she started in Primary 5!

[likeneontubing.livejournal.com]

Ring the admissions at Edinburgh on 0131 6511905 and ask how useful it would be. Ask for Niall, Shona or Claire

[cybik.livejournal.com]

Since when was Spanish unusual?!

[andrewducker]

I don't know anyone that studied it in school. Do you?

[cybik.livejournal.com]

Yes, I do - not a huge number, sure, but then I don't know what a lot of my friends studied at school. It's the third most common language for people to study at GCSE, apparently, only just below German. In fact, they think it won't be long before Spanish is the second most popular language, since the number of people taking it is actually increasing (unlike German).

[andrewducker]

I had no idea - thanks!

[poisonduk.livejournal.com]

In Primary Five K was offered the option of French, German or Spanish - 1/3 of the year do each language, so it is very common.

[cybik.livejournal.com]

And I think you should do a poll about it :P

[robling-t.livejournal.com]

You'll get different answers to that depending which side of the pond you're on, I suspect...

[autopope.livejournal.com]

25-30 years ago I studied pharmacy with no latin/greek background, and didn't feel the lack of it.

These days, furthermore, in the field of law, terminology has changed and a lot of obsolescent/weird/latin jargon has been not merely rendered obsolescent but is actually discouraged (so as not to bamboozle the civilians).

I wouldn't peg it as useless, but not having it is no longer a handicap. Hasn't been for a long time, in fact.

[communicator.livejournal.com]

I took Latin and I have found it very useful for guessing at the meaning of scientific terms, unknown 'difficult' words, latin tags, and words in other languages. Also for the poetic use of implication by words of other words and ideas, but that's of less use to your friend's daughter I guess. My kids were never given the option alas.

[0olong.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much what I was about to say, too. I certainly find my smattering of Latin (and Greek) useful when trying to decipher scientific writing covering unfamiliar territory (mainly in biology).

[interactiveleaf.livejournal.com]

Yes; it also has helped folks score well on their SATs and LSATs (important American educational thingummies) for the same reason.

[burkesworks.livejournal.com]

Do it. Latin is worth learning as a means in itself as much as a means to an end. I'm grateful I had the chance to do so.

[lebeautemps.livejournal.com]

I did Latin and my daughter does it now. I would say that it teaches the discipline of learning the mechanics of language, so helps with other languages, however obliquely. I'm not sure whether latin is relevant any longer for Sciences or even Law - things have labels that must be learned if necessary but that goes for latin and non latin people. My pal did a Vet degree recently and latin was not an issue.
I enjoyed it because it opened up that extra dimension to Roman history which I loved as a kid.

[0olong.livejournal.com]

When I was studying Law A Level (13 years ago now) our teachers said that Latin phrases were generally being phased out fairly successfully, and we shouldn't worry about them too much - though I suppose for Law, you will need to be able to read old cases and legislation, somewhere down the line.

[lebeautemps.livejournal.com]

Yes, true, the phrases are being phased out. From experience, I haven't come accross any cases or legislation in Latin that I've needed to read. And tbh, a GCSE in Latin would be inadequate for that anyway.

The old cases can be bad enough in English :)

[wychwood]

I don't think Latin is nearly as useful for that sort of thing as it used to be. I did Latin, and I don't regret it in the least, but it's been much more useful for Romance languages and general etymological-style things than it ever was for science.

[despotliz.livejournal.com]

I didn't learn Latin (not an option) and I don't feel it's handicapped me in later life except I didn't get the jokes in The Fires of Pompeii. I would go for it if they think that Latin would be enjoyable and interesting, but I don't think it's going to give them big problems doing science or medicine if they don't know it.

[pinkhebe.livejournal.com]

Hated it, and don't feel that it's contributed much at all (mind you, none of the A-levels I did were science). IIRC, very few of the A-level scientists did latin earlier on.

[cdave]

Oh Hai!

I thought you'd disappeared from the internet, but it turns out that Xanga had just moved it's RSS feeds, without putting a redirect in place.

Updated my feedreader. look like at least 4 other people still have the old link :(

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

The kid should do the subjects she actually enjoys or thinks she would enjoy. Life shouldn't purely be about utility. I say that as one who took far too long to come to that conclusion.

[iainjcoleman.livejournal.com]

I did Latin for the first two years of high school. Its usefulness for science is pretty minimal, to be honest. Perhaps it's more useful in medicine. It's most beneficial for the study of European languages and cultures, and, of course, for classical language and culture.

You haven't said what level she's thinking of taking Latin at, or what the other options are, so it's hard to give real advice. All I would say is that, while learnign Latin is useful for other things, the same can be said for just about anything else. I would only suggest studying for a qualification in Latin to someone who is at least somewhat interested in the language for its own sake, otherwise it would be a pretty miserable experience.

[drplokta]

While Latin will certainly give you some insight into scientific and medical terms, it probably won't be as useful as spending the same amount of time actually studying the history of science.

[kashandara.livejournal.com]

I took Latin all the way to Scottish Higher and for all that I don't find it useful either working in a scientific industry (it does come up occassionally) nor was it hugely useful at Uni to be honest, I did find the learning of it useful as it was taught in a much more scientific, structured way than the other languages, certainly at my school.

The Latin texts that tend to be taught alongside the language are also both interesting and educational, and something I wouldn't have been exposed to if not for using them to learn the language.

Also, I don't think I've ever been to a job interview without it drawing comment as it's on my CV, and for all that my employers weren't looking for it, it's a point of interest... I've even used it to strike up conversations with people I thought looked interesting, though your friend's daughter may be a little young for that to be an important point yet ;-)

[greybeta.livejournal.com]

Besides science, Latin is useful if you're thinking about studying the classics. But, in that case, she'd have to be willing to study Greek as well.

[flickgc.livejournal.com]

I did three years of Latin, but I didn't do it to GCSE. I really enjoyed it, and I found it useful from a linguistic (and history) point of view, but not really for science.

(The most real-world use I got from it was on a trip to Italy, where I managed quite well by mangling together French and Latin....)

[randomchris.livejournal.com]

The main use I've had from it is setting Latin words to music and knowing what they actually mean as I do so!
It would also be useful for being a doctor at least - all the terminology I've come across in my excursions into the medical world (mainly as a typist) have had Latin or Greek roots, and having Latin was very useful for that.

[makyo.livejournal.com]

I did Latin GCSE and although it's been of little or no practical use to me in my mathematical or computing careers, it has been a positive addition to my life, and if I had to go through school again (god forbid) I'd still do it.

On the practical side, I have a better idea how English grammar works, it's enhanced my spelling ability (on a few occasions I've found myself thinking "oh, it'll be spelled like this because it's derived from that"), and I'm sometimes able to guess what an unfamiliar English word means by thinking about what Latin word(s) it might be derived from.

But most of all, as with anything else we learn, it's added a kind of overlay to the way I look at the world, and increased the number of connections I see between things I experience. It's enriched my life in numerous interesting ways - and I think that's the point of education. So I think I'd advise your friend's daughter to have a preliminary look at it, decide if it's something she'd find interesting (rather than necessarily useful) and base her decision on that, because I think interesting things are always useful in some way.

[kashandara.livejournal.com]

iawtc

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

Regardless of use, I would learn it – it's interesting and most courses have a smattering of ancient history as well.

I did it

[zornhau.livejournal.com]

I found it useful when I studied History, and it adds depth to my visits to ancient sites. I think the best thing about it is that it's a way in to the Ancient World. If there's no opportunity cost, and she wants to do it, then she should.

[star-tourmaline.livejournal.com]

I took Latin to 'A' level and it remains one of the best decisions I've ever made. Only shorthand would have been more useful.

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

ditto.

[anef.livejournal.com]

I loved Latin and Greek and would recommend them to anybody. Apart from all the advantages that everybody else has mentioned I do think they help you to think analytically, which I would have said was useful in a scientist.

[e-halmac.livejournal.com]

Wish I'd had the chance. Very useful for life in general. We're taught so little about how our language works, and Latin is a good basis. And for learning others too (or just reading signs on holiday...).

[skington.livejournal.com]

I took Latin for a couple of years, starting when I was 14, and hated it. (I should say that this was in France, where I'd been doing German for two years already, and I took it at the same time I started Spanish.) It's a really annoyingly finickity language with far too many cases and declensions. And it's not as if you'll end up being able to speak to anyone in the damn thing, something which makes learning a language bearable.

I can agree with posters who say that knowing the latin word helps you remember English spellings; I'd warrant, though, that the same thing would be true of any romance language (it's certainly true for French).

[seph-hazard.livejournal.com]

Useful not only for doctor, vet and sciences but also for linguistics - Italian, Spanish etc become very penetrable if you have Latin. Fabulous from a literary POV - original texts &c. Cool thing to know, too, and I wish I knew it. Gets you lots of cool geek points and means you can answer stupid questions and be a pedant. I like pedantry.

I also think, though, that parents dictating which subjects their secondary-school-age kids learn is fucking annoying. If SHE wants to do Latin then she should do Latin and if she doesn't, well, then, she shouldn't.

[ratmist.livejournal.com]

Obviously, I'm in the 'do it' column. I wish I had been given the chance.

[swisstone.livejournal.com]

Obviously, Latin is a great subject and everyone should do it!

But seriously - yes, Latin will help in the future anyone who studies it. Perhaps not so much for technical language - that's quite a superficial reason - but for training a disciplined mind, and giving an understanding into how languages are built that will help with any language in the future, and I mean ANY language, including computer languages.

But other subjects can also give a student this. And a student won't get this from Latin if they don't want to be doing Latin. The worst thing a parent can do for a child's academic success is make them take a subject that they have no affinity for or interest in, just because they believe that subject will be more useful for them in future.

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

Useful for law. Res ipsa loquitur.

[andrewducker]

Apparently not so much any more :->