Spoiler Discussion - (spoiler free)

[andrewducker]

In the last couple of days I've been in discussion with a couple of different people about spoilers. One of them about BSG season 2 (now two years old) and the other about HP:Half Blood Prince (now four years old), with them considering that as they'd experienced them years ago, they couldn't possibly be considered spoilers.

Which is the exact opposite of how I feel about it. Because there are movies I still haven't seen fronm the 1950s, where discussion of the twist in the tale would spoil the movie for me. And I'm very aware that the majority of people who go to see the new HP movie won't have read the book.

To me, spoilers are all about politeness. If you tell someone the end/twist of something they didn't know, and will possibly experience in the future, when they didn't want to know, then you've spoiled that experience for them. I remember the feeling of watching Empire Strikes Back and discovering that Han and Chewied were lovers. The shock and surprise at the moment of reveal was an integral part of the experience for me, and taking it away from people that haven't seen the movie yet is just plain rude.

Now, you can argue that it being years old, the chances that people on your friends list haven't seen Empire Strikes Back is low. Which is true if you're posting friends-only and have nobody under the age of 20 on your friends list. But it's not like the olden days, when a movie would appear, and then vanish again, when TV that had made the rounds was lost. Nowadays I can go out and buy box sets for TV made before I was born, and watch it entirely fresh. There are more hours of TV and movies out there than I have time to watch in my whole life, and the chances are that some will be watched years out of synch with their original release. And I'd really appreciate you not telling me the details before I do!

Obviously I consider all of the following to be spoilers. I'm curious whether you do too. If you don't then I'd love to know why...

[Poll #1430090]

Also: NO SPOILERS IN THE COMMENTS!

Comments

[meihua.livejournal.com]

Revealing the end of Empire would be a spoiler; but it would be a spoiler that I am certain everyone would already have heard due to the ubiquity of the phrase in question. So, I don't consider mentioning it in an unfiltered post to be a problem, which I think was the spirit of your question?

[andrewducker]

If I hadn't seen the movie then I would be very upset with you. And the fact that you hang out with SF geeks who quote old movies a lot doesn't mean that everyone has been thus spoiled...

[meihua.livejournal.com]

I don't consider mentioning it in an unfiltered post to be a problem. I didn't say I'd put up a billboard.

"you hang out with SF geeks who quote old movies a lot" <-- I think that this phrase also accurately describes anybody who might read my post.

[andrewducker]

This is true - and it's something you can probably judge reasonably well if your friends list is small.

But there's already someone on this post who hasn't seen the movies (see below), so mentioning it in a comment on _my_ journal is clearly bad.

[meihua.livejournal.com]

Er, I haven't mentioned it in a comment on your journal. If you think I have, please screen the relevant comment.

[andrewducker]

Oh - that wasn't me telling you off, just saying that I'm happy enough for you to decide that on your journal everyone knows the end, but sadly I can't do that.

[bohemiancoast.livejournal.com]

Well, tough. We put a cartoon in Plokta the other issue that contains that spoiler, together with a quote from a more recent bit of SF. It's a funny joke, and the notion that 99% of our readers should be deprived of it because someone might go OH NOES YOU'VE SPOILED EMPIRE is just deranged.

Yes, it's a spoiler. No, it is not reasonable to say that nobody is ever allowed to refer to the ending of any fictional tale in social discourse, no matter how old that tale is. Like a lot of other things, it's a judgment call; how well known is the spoiler? how many of the people you're talking to will care?

Having said all that, I've picked up the habit of open air Shakespeare, and one of the things that is particularly delightful about it is that I'm such a complete ignoramus that I'm completely unspoilt for most of them. Turns out the plots are pretty good!

[andrewducker]

Plokta, of course, goes out to an SF-literate audience, where you _can_ be sure that everyone who is likely to see Empire has seen it.

And I agree with you about Shakespeare. I'm very glad I was unspoiled for most of it, because it made it so much more fun.

[matgb]

I agree with you, and add more to it. The end of Empire has been used as a joke on Radio 4's The Now Show more than once, and on mainstream entertainment TV shows. The line in and of itself is so well known that, while it's a plot point that was originally a reveal, is now just part of the cultural ethos. If it can be used as a joke on a mainstream comedy show it's too well known to be annoyed about.

[andrewducker]

Are you telling me what emotions I should feel?

Really?

[matgb]

Emotions aren't rational. You can be annoyed about something that it's completely irrational to be annoyed about, but recognition that it is irrational would be useful.

If it's considered well known enough for it to be usable as a joke on a flagship BBC comedy show, then it's just a generally known point.

At this point, as someone else has said, anyone that's reached 20ish that hasn't seen Empire is unlikely to want to or care. Same applies to the ending of Citizen Kane (and I watched the movie already knowing and didn't think it mattered at all, but then Kane isn't about the plot at all).

[andrewducker]

See, I disagree strongly with the last point. People change. People grow up liking one kind of thing and then decide they like something different. People get introduced to a new genre late on, and then go around devouring lots of it.

The point being that you can't make assumptions about what is going to spoil a movie for someone. Telling them that they shouldn't have their experiences spoiled by your actions sounds ridiculous to me. Either their experience was spoiled, or it was not. You telling them otherwise sounds like paternalism.

I'm happy to agree that _most_ people will have seen Empire, but three people have already commented on this post that they haven't. And you never know when they might decide that maybe their friends are right, and give it a go. Unless they've said "Go ahead, tell me how it ends." then I think that posting the end of the movie in a public place is rude.

[matgb]

But overall, Empire isn't about the ending--it's a mid point film, written as such, etc.

Now, if I were to write a post about Empire (which wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility), I would make sure to say at the top that I'd be discussing the plot and assume readers have seen it. But to write a post about Empire and not actually discuss the film at this stage when it's 30 years old would be a waste of my time.

A review on release shouldn't talk about such things, but a literary review on the film many years later would be remiss not to.

And the endings are important parts of the film, but if the film relied upon them for impact, it wouldn't be the damn fine film it actually is.

[andrewducker]

I would make sure to say at the top that I'd be discussing the plot and assume readers have seen it.

So you'd be posting spoiler warnings. Which is all anyone's been asking for :->

[0olong.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth, I'm in the position of still not having seen Citizen Kane, though I've been meaning to for years and years. Somehow it just never comes up as a film I might watch with people. Maybe it wouldn't matter if I knew how it ends, but the fact is that right now I haven't a clue and on the whole I'm glad I don't - is this surprising?

[nmg.livejournal.com]

What she said.

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

I concur.

[e-halmac.livejournal.com]

I went to see Toy Story 2 in the cinema (yeah, yeah, I know...) some years back with a friend from Uni who had never seen the Star Wars movies, and therefore didn't get the whole Buzz/Zurg scene with the immortal Empire quote. I guess the above may be considered a spoiler if you haven't seen TS2 and you have seen Empire. Sorry. Anyway, we were utterly shocked that you could be "normal", and 20 years old, and live in the First World, and NOT have seen the Star Wars movies. Shocking, but true.

In other news, I love spoilers. I read the end of books before I finish the first chapter. I _beg_ people to tell me the end of movies I'm watching/about to watch. In fairness, I love it when they wont tell me, or lie, so it is a surprise. I have to try really hard not to do spoilers for other people, though I rarely see a movie or read a book before other people, or of interest to other people.

[woodpijn.livejournal.com]

I guess the above may be considered a spoiler if you haven't seen TS2 and you have seen Empire. Sorry.

More so the other way round, surely? In Toy Story it's a throwaway joke and you don't lose much by knowing it turns out like Star Wars; in Star Wars it's a major twist and you would get spoiled by knowing it turns out like Toy Story.

[e-halmac.livejournal.com]

Indeed. Sorry again to anyone who has seen TS2, and didn't get the Buzz/Zurg thing, and I've just ruined Empire for them by comparing the two.
Though in the context of the point made about Star Wars (but it would be a spoiler that I am certain everyone would already have heard due to the ubiquity of the phrase in question), and my example, it was that way around.

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

I'm 33, normal-to-geeky, living in the UK, and I've never seen any part of Star Wars. Don't really want to, either.

Hmm, there's spoilers, which are everything that I didn't already know about any given story, and rude spoilers, where people would reasonably expect I might not know that thing, and tell anyway.

[e-halmac.livejournal.com]

Absolutely, to both points!

I must say I would never maliciously tell someone a spoiler. But I clearly have a different idea about what one is, as I love knowing the ending.

And, to be fair to spoilers, I _personally_ don't think that the twist in Empire is one that would have spoilered the movie for me. Now the twist in Sixth Sense - yep, did not see that one coming, and it made the movie.