andrewducker | Welcome to the 21st century.

I can understand why there's a stereotype of feminists as humourless.

I mean, if you're used to being able to make jokes about horrible things happening to women and then a group of people start telling you that they don't find this funny then your perception of them is going to be that they just don't have a sense of humour. After all, you don't _seriously_ want bad things to happen to women, you're just having a laugh, right?

My old friend Ed went to this debate in which a controversial comedian debated whether it was ok to make offensive jokes. Frankie Boyle used his moments on the debating stand to tell a series of increasingly unpleasant jokes - all of which got a massive laugh from the audience, except when they touched on a subject just a little too close to home. My friend found himself laughing at all sorts of appalling things, until the subject was (coincidentally) turned onto his own situation, at which point he found himself thinking "but that's not funny".

Because it's never funny when it's about you. It's only funny when it's about someone you don't care about.

Or, at the very least, if you can pretend that nobody you know is like that.

It's much easier when you live in a nice insular environment, where you only really know people like yourself, and you certainly only socialise with people just like you. Then you can bask in in-group/out-group socialisation to your heart's content.

Not to easy when you're on the internet, and people are likely to pop up at any moment and point out the flaws inherent in something you thought was innocent fun.

The question is - how do you deal with it when someone points it out? Do you have to let the flaws ruint it for you because they offend someone else? Do you have to argue that there's nothing wrong with the thing you love?

If you care (and nobody is going to make you) then some very useful hints and tips can be found here. The flow-chart at the end is particularly good.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

So completely ignoring any culture other than your own is better than paying some attention to it, but not getting it completely right?
No. Using them in a manner whereby you reinforce stereotypes is worse than ignoring it. Showing a varied image of them that isn't completely right is better than either. IMHO.

I'd say the Chinese/Asian elements in Firefly increased my awareness of Asia as a global power
I'm intrigued as to how they did that when they didn't actually show any powerful Chinese/Asian people.

Just the concept that the US wasn't going to be the global power throughout all time was refreshing, actually.

And the Chinese swearing was surprisingly effective. Most of us in the US/UK don't hear people we empathise with using a foreign language very often. Just acclimatising me to that, I think, was a big plus.

I'm glad it helped you. Can you understand why some people of an Asian background might have found that it merely added onto the negative portrayals of them?

I can see why they might feel that. I don't think they're right, and I don't feel it's the responsibility of a creator to avoid causing offence at all costs.

(Incidentally, which character would you have cast as Asian? Jayne? "Firefly stereotypes Asians as violent thugs". Mal? "Ah, another stereotyped emotionally retarded Asian character". Wash? "But I notice that the only Asian in the crew is portrayed as ineffectual". Simon? River?

Inara?

There are maybe one or two characters whom you wouldn't be opening yourself up to accusations of racism by casting as Asian, but it's another can of worms.)

I don't think they're right
Don't think they're right in what?

In being offended?

Because they _are_ offended.

In saying that there are no powerful Asian characters in the whole series, but there are background Asian peasant ones?

Because that would seem, to me, to be an accurate summation.

You could easily have had Kayleigh, Simon, River and Zoe as Asian without having to change anything at all in the plot. Heck, you could have had a half-asian crew. All those hospitals we saw, and all the cops, and the various people on the frontier planets. Could even 20% of them have not been Asian?

You said "Can you understand why some people of an Asian background might have found that it merely added onto the negative portrayals of them?"

I said "I can see why they might feel that. I don't think they're right."

Therefore, I meant that "I don't think they're right that Firefly did nothing but add to negative portrayals of Asians".

Which is fair enough - as the flowchart says, you can happily disagree with someone else about it, take in that they do feel unhappy but you don't, and move on.

Personally, I feel that there is something somewhat troubling there, still thoroughly enjoy the show, and move on :->

In an ideal world, I'd prefer there was an Asian character. However, given it hasn't even occurred to me until it was mentioned a couple of days ago, I'm not too fussed that it wasn't there.

> In an ideal world, I'd prefer there was an Asian character.

Here, I'd say - this isn't about you. It's not about what will educate you the best.

It's about the experience of an Asian person watching Firefly, and how they feel by the way Asian people are portrayed.

Here I think you're making assumptions about what I mean by "prefer". I would also prefer a world where women were paid equally to men, and that won't educate me either.

Ah, perhaps I am - sorry.

Then I think the thing to do is not consider even what you think should be done - but ask PoC what they would like to be done.

As per

andrewducker's earlier comments in these threads, I think that PoC have spoken on this issue and expressed their dislike of what was done.

I'm gonna repeat something I said elsewhere, even though you found it unhelpful then, which is this: You don't get it. You may not be able to get it. Don't think you get it. Instead, if you want to help issues regarding racism, listen to what PoC are saying, and either support them or be quiet unless you are very satisfied that you have fully educated yourself on all the issues, you've taken part in many discussions, and many PoC have told you that you're getting it.

No.

The fastest way to avoid writing good fiction I know is to be entirely subservient to other people's opinion.

And the people of colour/gender/sexual preference/height/weight/appearance/intellectual or physical appearance I consult are almost certainly not representative.

The advice in my comment above is advice which, if followed, would help one write fiction which isn't racist.

It's ok not to follow that advice; but accept that as a result, the fiction you write may (or may not) be racist, without you realising.

In your opinion.

At some point you run up against the realities of studio production. Name me one other major network show where half the characters are Asian? It doesn't happen because the network producers believe, probably with some evidence to back that belief, that having that many Asian characters in a show will reduce their ratings, considerably, because people identify with, amongst other things, people who look like them.

Same reason why we don't see many fat characters. Unfair, but we are talking about a *business* here, and one with pretty thin margins.

Joss Whedon may have fought for a single Asian character, or a couple - I don't know. But I really doubt he had a hope of making half or more of the crew Asian.

Welcome to the 21st century.

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject