Welcome to the 21st century.

[andrewducker]

I can understand why there's a stereotype of feminists as humourless.

I mean, if you're used to being able to make jokes about horrible things happening to women and then a group of people start telling you that they don't find this funny then your perception of them is going to be that they just don't have a sense of humour.  After all, you don't _seriously_ want bad things to happen to women, you're just having a laugh, right?

My old friend Ed went to this debate in which a controversial comedian debated whether it was ok to make offensive jokes.  Frankie Boyle used his moments on the debating stand to tell a series of increasingly unpleasant jokes - all of which got a massive laugh from the audience, except when they touched on a subject just a little too close to home.  My friend found himself laughing at all sorts of appalling things, until the subject was (coincidentally) turned onto his own situation, at which point he found himself thinking "but that's not funny".

Because it's never funny when it's about you.  It's only funny when it's about someone you don't care about. 

Or, at the very least, if you can pretend that nobody you know is like that.

It's much easier when you live in a nice insular environment, where you only really know people like yourself, and you certainly only socialise with people just like you.  Then you can bask in in-group/out-group socialisation to your heart's content.

Not to easy when you're on the internet, and people are likely to pop up at any moment and point out the flaws inherent in something you thought was innocent fun.

The question is - how do you deal with it when someone points it out?  Do you have to let the flaws ruint it for you because they offend someone else?  Do you have to argue that there's nothing wrong with the thing you love?

If you care (and nobody is going to make you) then some very useful hints and tips can be found here.  The flow-chart at the end is particularly good.

Comments

[andrewducker]

Well, when Joss Whedon created a world where all of the main/successful characters were American, while the only Chinese characters were backgrounded peasants, despite stating that the world was a fusion of American and Chinese society, I assume he wasn't deliberately saying that Americans would naturally come out on top, and the Chinese aren't capable of being anything more than stereotyped peasants. But you can see why some people would have taken it that way, I assume?

But that's clearly less bad than someone deliberately producing racist stereotypes, because it's not intended to be upsetting, and deliberate stereotypes are there to make people look bad and reinforce prejudice, and would therefore tend to have a strong effect.

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

Yep, I get that.

The question I'm asking is whether you'd therefore believe that Joss Whedon is anti-Asian in his own beliefs.

[andrewducker]

I find it unlikely that he is positively anti-Asian in his own beliefs. i.e. I doubt that he set out to be negative about Asians.

But he may well be unconsciously anti-Asian, insofar as he has no interest in them beyond a trivial use of their culture as a backdrop to his TV show, without thinking about the effect this would have.

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

Not to nitpick, but does "no interest in" equal "anti-"?

(For example, I'm not very interested in knitting, but does that make me anti-knitting?)

[andrewducker]

Depends on the effect it has in your work.

If you repeatedly use knitting as an example of something that ineffectual backgrounded characters do, while foregrounded active characters are chess-players, purely because you know about chess, and knitting seems like a handy shorthand for "another hobby that's non-tactical in nature", then you may not be intending to be anti-knitting, but you're still going to upset the knitters with your anti-knitting stance :->

Whereas if you never mentioned knitting (or Joss had never used any aspect of Chinese culture in Firefly) then obviously it wouldn't be an issue.

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

That seems wierd to me. So completely ignoring any culture other than your own is better than paying some attention to it, but not getting it completely right?

Speaking personally, I'd say the Chinese/Asian elements in Firefly increased my awareness of Asia as a global power equal to the West, and increased my comfort level with elements of Asian culture a little, and I'd have said that was a good thing race relations wise. I'd miss it if it suddenly miraculously wasn't there.

[andrewducker]

So completely ignoring any culture other than your own is better than paying some attention to it, but not getting it completely right?
No. Using them in a manner whereby you reinforce stereotypes is worse than ignoring it. Showing a varied image of them that isn't completely right is better than either. IMHO.

I'd say the Chinese/Asian elements in Firefly increased my awareness of Asia as a global power
I'm intrigued as to how they did that when they didn't actually show any powerful Chinese/Asian people.

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

Just the concept that the US wasn't going to be the global power throughout all time was refreshing, actually.

And the Chinese swearing was surprisingly effective. Most of us in the US/UK don't hear people we empathise with using a foreign language very often. Just acclimatising me to that, I think, was a big plus.

[andrewducker]

I'm glad it helped you. Can you understand why some people of an Asian background might have found that it merely added onto the negative portrayals of them?

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

I can see why they might feel that. I don't think they're right, and I don't feel it's the responsibility of a creator to avoid causing offence at all costs.

(Incidentally, which character would you have cast as Asian? Jayne? "Firefly stereotypes Asians as violent thugs". Mal? "Ah, another stereotyped emotionally retarded Asian character". Wash? "But I notice that the only Asian in the crew is portrayed as ineffectual". Simon? River?

Inara?

There are maybe one or two characters whom you wouldn't be opening yourself up to accusations of racism by casting as Asian, but it's another can of worms.)

[zz]

Speaking personally, I'd say the Chinese/Asian elements in Firefly increased my awareness of Asia as a global power equal to the West

ditto. it reminded me that the future might not be inevitably entirely english-speaking (at least as a 2nd language).

[chuma.livejournal.com]

Or maybe he was influenced by American TV and what is popular and decided to go with the masses. Most American programs consist of american actors and are probably more accessible to the target audience.

Also... what effect has it had? None to negligable?

[andrewducker]

I saw a fair amount of discussion by upset Asians (both in America and otherwise) at the time.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

I'd still suggest this is negligable, or at the very least people looking for something to complain about. It would be like me complaining about Giles as being a stereotype nerdy, tweed-loving, po-faced Brit.

[andrewducker]

You think people complaining about the stereotypical portrayal of their race is jut because they're looking for something to complain about?

Really?

[chuma.livejournal.com]

I think they are entitled to complain, but stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. The goth kids on South Park make me laugh even though it is effectively picking fun at a label that describes me. I see characteristics of myself and many of my friends in the stereotype, but they are exaggerated in order to make fun of them. Sure, complain if you want to, but do I really understand? No not really. I see Hugh Grant playing English stereotypes all the time and not identifying with him on any level whatsoever, but I wouldn't set up a discussion topic on him.

[andrewducker]

I think they are entitled to complain, but stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason.

Yes. And in a lot of cases that reason is to keep control over people who up until 40 years ago didn't have the right to vote. I'm lucky, the racism that I might face isn't going to be major, and it's likely to always be in the form of humour.

In the States there's still a lot of very unpleasant racism that's expressed through violence and intimidation. And if you've spent most of your life dealing with that kind of atmosphere then you're going to be very sensitised towards it.

[marrog.livejournal.com]

It's a little different ripping the piss out of a group of people who've chosen to dress and behave in a certain way and reinforcing stereotypes about a group of people who've been historically enslaved/butchered/etc due simply to the colour of their skin. Srsly, there's just no comparison. There's a big difference between racism and taking the piss out of babybats.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

Sure, there may be a big difference, but the problem is that I can only relate to any experiences through my own. I cannot know how it feels for a black person to be racially abused, I can only draw comparison as best I can. However there is also the world of difference between racism and making a joke about, lets say, dead hookers. All things can be said to have their differences.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

Incidentally, where do you draw the line between born with e.g. race, disability and people who chose certain behaviour?

What about religion? This is a choice, technically, but it difficult to pick and choose between your feelings and beliefs and this can be so closely linked to culture and upbringing. Some people are gay but make the ‘life choice’ not to be, they suck it up and date the opposite gender or remain celibate. And, in either case, miserable. With the possible exception of disability (most kinds) it is possible if you choose to cover up anything about your life in the same way as you choose to behave in certain ways. I don’t know enough about it, but suspect there are those who equate gothdom with being a kind of religion (and it ties closely to some religions). I totally understand your point – but where is the line?

[meihua.livejournal.com]

Dude, you're very wrong here, and I think you should rethink or at least rephrase the first sentence.

Failing that, I suggest you go to any blog or community which deals with discussion of issues on race (preferably a community mostly containing Asian people), post that comment, and see what happens.

PS: I don't suggest this really!

[chuma.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't because it would come across as someone white making fun of or trying to upset a group of asians. That wouldn't be the case. This is an example of me checking my thoughts around certain people to avoid offense.

Maybe if you could actually give me an example of how firefly was offensive to them I might understand better? To me it was just a western in space with a modern context to the earth as a whole rather than nations. Personally, I would have found it offensive if they had have done the usual hollywood trick of just having Americans in space with no other amalgamation of cultures from Earth.

[meihua.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I can give you a good example of how firefly is offensive in that way unless you're female, PoC, disabled, not cisgendered, or something along those lines.

It's in the context of constant, omnidirectional subtle put-downs, implications, opinion about "place" in society.

Any one example of a PoC being shown in a subservient role isn't, taken in isolation, hugely offensive.

But when time and time again, that's the dominant portrayal - one you're faced with everywhere you go? And your kids are faced with it too?

It's all part of a culture of subtle prejudice that makes every single example of it an irritation - one which builds to an inflammation.

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

The "you can't understand, you're not on the to-be-protected minorities list" argument is rarely convincing, and always irritating. If I was going to believe things based on people telling me I couldn't understand them, I'd be a lot more religious.

I'm sorry that my response is an inflamatory way to take this debate, and I won't be responding further on this, because I don't want to get into a RaceFail re-enactment.

However, I really don't feel, based on the number of people who have mentioned they find it extremely irritating, that anti-prejudice crusaders do themselves any favours with this argument. At base I actually do feel that trying to work against prejudice is a good thing, so, you know, I thought that was worth mentioning.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

Slightly following on from Cairmen’s comment, Chuma may not be ‘female, PoC, disabled, not cisgendered, or something along those lines.’ But he is male. Men are starting to see massive accepted gender opression and stereotyping, particularly in popular comedy – I see what could be ‘seen as an arrow (which to me is subtly different to my seeing the arrow) in comedy clubs, in countless sitcoms and dramas e.g. Friends, Sex and The City, Buffy, Ugly Betty to name but a couple of the top of my head. Some of these go hand in hand with female stereotyping, but why is it worse with women? Put this hand it hand with the treatment of men in magazines and popular culture and sexist rulings at a legislative level - eg rules that groups or boards etc that specify that at least one woman must be appointed, but not at least one men, which means it is legal for a board to comprise all women but not all men – that is sexist.

AND men aren’t allowed to complain about it, because they ‘couldn’t possibly know’. Yes I realise that worldwide female oppression and stereotyping is a much larger problem but the hypocrisy of saying ‘you’re a man, you couldn’t know about what it is like to have a gender’ is, to me, sexism of the most extreme level.

Lx