Welcome to the 21st century.

[andrewducker]

I can understand why there's a stereotype of feminists as humourless.

I mean, if you're used to being able to make jokes about horrible things happening to women and then a group of people start telling you that they don't find this funny then your perception of them is going to be that they just don't have a sense of humour.  After all, you don't _seriously_ want bad things to happen to women, you're just having a laugh, right?

My old friend Ed went to this debate in which a controversial comedian debated whether it was ok to make offensive jokes.  Frankie Boyle used his moments on the debating stand to tell a series of increasingly unpleasant jokes - all of which got a massive laugh from the audience, except when they touched on a subject just a little too close to home.  My friend found himself laughing at all sorts of appalling things, until the subject was (coincidentally) turned onto his own situation, at which point he found himself thinking "but that's not funny".

Because it's never funny when it's about you.  It's only funny when it's about someone you don't care about. 

Or, at the very least, if you can pretend that nobody you know is like that.

It's much easier when you live in a nice insular environment, where you only really know people like yourself, and you certainly only socialise with people just like you.  Then you can bask in in-group/out-group socialisation to your heart's content.

Not to easy when you're on the internet, and people are likely to pop up at any moment and point out the flaws inherent in something you thought was innocent fun.

The question is - how do you deal with it when someone points it out?  Do you have to let the flaws ruint it for you because they offend someone else?  Do you have to argue that there's nothing wrong with the thing you love?

If you care (and nobody is going to make you) then some very useful hints and tips can be found here.  The flow-chart at the end is particularly good.

Comments

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

From the other post - "liking a story with an arrow doesn't make you a bigot"

Does WRITING a story with an arrow necessarily make you a bigot/racist/sexist/whatever?

[andrewducker]

Depends. Did you deliberately play up to a negative stereotype?

("You" here being impersonal, I'm not accusing _you_ of anything)

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

Can you expand?

(And understood, although to make a point later I might do a quick analysis of BloodSpell, which I'm fairly sure you can analyse to make me look *really* bad.)

[andrewducker]

Well, when Joss Whedon created a world where all of the main/successful characters were American, while the only Chinese characters were backgrounded peasants, despite stating that the world was a fusion of American and Chinese society, I assume he wasn't deliberately saying that Americans would naturally come out on top, and the Chinese aren't capable of being anything more than stereotyped peasants. But you can see why some people would have taken it that way, I assume?

But that's clearly less bad than someone deliberately producing racist stereotypes, because it's not intended to be upsetting, and deliberate stereotypes are there to make people look bad and reinforce prejudice, and would therefore tend to have a strong effect.

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

Yep, I get that.

The question I'm asking is whether you'd therefore believe that Joss Whedon is anti-Asian in his own beliefs.

[andrewducker]

I find it unlikely that he is positively anti-Asian in his own beliefs. i.e. I doubt that he set out to be negative about Asians.

But he may well be unconsciously anti-Asian, insofar as he has no interest in them beyond a trivial use of their culture as a backdrop to his TV show, without thinking about the effect this would have.

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

Not to nitpick, but does "no interest in" equal "anti-"?

(For example, I'm not very interested in knitting, but does that make me anti-knitting?)

[andrewducker]

Depends on the effect it has in your work.

If you repeatedly use knitting as an example of something that ineffectual backgrounded characters do, while foregrounded active characters are chess-players, purely because you know about chess, and knitting seems like a handy shorthand for "another hobby that's non-tactical in nature", then you may not be intending to be anti-knitting, but you're still going to upset the knitters with your anti-knitting stance :->

Whereas if you never mentioned knitting (or Joss had never used any aspect of Chinese culture in Firefly) then obviously it wouldn't be an issue.

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

That seems wierd to me. So completely ignoring any culture other than your own is better than paying some attention to it, but not getting it completely right?

Speaking personally, I'd say the Chinese/Asian elements in Firefly increased my awareness of Asia as a global power equal to the West, and increased my comfort level with elements of Asian culture a little, and I'd have said that was a good thing race relations wise. I'd miss it if it suddenly miraculously wasn't there.

[andrewducker]

So completely ignoring any culture other than your own is better than paying some attention to it, but not getting it completely right?
No. Using them in a manner whereby you reinforce stereotypes is worse than ignoring it. Showing a varied image of them that isn't completely right is better than either. IMHO.

I'd say the Chinese/Asian elements in Firefly increased my awareness of Asia as a global power
I'm intrigued as to how they did that when they didn't actually show any powerful Chinese/Asian people.

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

Just the concept that the US wasn't going to be the global power throughout all time was refreshing, actually.

And the Chinese swearing was surprisingly effective. Most of us in the US/UK don't hear people we empathise with using a foreign language very often. Just acclimatising me to that, I think, was a big plus.

[andrewducker]

I'm glad it helped you. Can you understand why some people of an Asian background might have found that it merely added onto the negative portrayals of them?

[zz]

Speaking personally, I'd say the Chinese/Asian elements in Firefly increased my awareness of Asia as a global power equal to the West

ditto. it reminded me that the future might not be inevitably entirely english-speaking (at least as a 2nd language).

[chuma.livejournal.com]

Or maybe he was influenced by American TV and what is popular and decided to go with the masses. Most American programs consist of american actors and are probably more accessible to the target audience.

Also... what effect has it had? None to negligable?

[andrewducker]

I saw a fair amount of discussion by upset Asians (both in America and otherwise) at the time.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

I'd still suggest this is negligable, or at the very least people looking for something to complain about. It would be like me complaining about Giles as being a stereotype nerdy, tweed-loving, po-faced Brit.

[andrewducker]

You think people complaining about the stereotypical portrayal of their race is jut because they're looking for something to complain about?

Really?

[chuma.livejournal.com]

I think they are entitled to complain, but stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. The goth kids on South Park make me laugh even though it is effectively picking fun at a label that describes me. I see characteristics of myself and many of my friends in the stereotype, but they are exaggerated in order to make fun of them. Sure, complain if you want to, but do I really understand? No not really. I see Hugh Grant playing English stereotypes all the time and not identifying with him on any level whatsoever, but I wouldn't set up a discussion topic on him.

[meihua.livejournal.com]

Dude, you're very wrong here, and I think you should rethink or at least rephrase the first sentence.

Failing that, I suggest you go to any blog or community which deals with discussion of issues on race (preferably a community mostly containing Asian people), post that comment, and see what happens.

PS: I don't suggest this really!

[chuma.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't because it would come across as someone white making fun of or trying to upset a group of asians. That wouldn't be the case. This is an example of me checking my thoughts around certain people to avoid offense.

Maybe if you could actually give me an example of how firefly was offensive to them I might understand better? To me it was just a western in space with a modern context to the earth as a whole rather than nations. Personally, I would have found it offensive if they had have done the usual hollywood trick of just having Americans in space with no other amalgamation of cultures from Earth.

[lilitufire.livejournal.com]

I'm fairly sure there's some significant crimes against underwear in there :)

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

Erm, that "you" in my reply isn't intended to mean you personally either!

[meihua.livejournal.com]

It caaaaaaaaan do, yes. But, expand the definition of racism a bit.

Someone's a big, bad, evil racist if they go about beating up people of colour.

Someone's a medium racist if every black character in their books is poor, from the ghetto, loves watermelon and fried chicken, even when that wouldn't make sense for that character.

Someone can be a bit racist if they are unintentionally incorporating those stereotypes into stories they write.

The key thing is not to go "ARRRRGH! You just called me racist! I don't go around beating up black folks!". It's to go, "Ok, you're saying there are racist implications in my story. I should look at that."

A lot of confusion occurs because people can't handle other people suggesting they are racist. They feel that racists are those folks who used to be KKK members, not nice people like them. However, the word is broad, and covers both camps - just to differing degrees.

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

How do you as a reader tell whether a usage is intentional or unintentional?

Also, is it better or worse if a stereotyped character is intentionally in place, rather than unintentionally? (In other words, if the author is aware of the stereotype, but chooses to use it or aspects of it.)

[meihua.livejournal.com]

As a reader, I probably don't know if it's intentional or unintentional. I find it distracting either way, and it lessens my enjoyment of the story.

If I know the author, I'd say, "Hey, this bit reads kinda racist." If I don't know them, I might complain in my journal, "I read story X by author Y, did anyone else think this bit was kinda racist?"

I'm not that fussed about deciding if it's "better" or "worse" - I'd think that both are a problem and can be addressed. Maybe better to think about how fixable it is, which varies.

Sometimes, an opinion which is consciously held is easier to change, because you can actually talk about it without the whole "But I don't think that" thing. But, sometimes it's consciously held with strong feeling, in which case it's hard to change.