Freedom of speech and thought

[andrewducker]

The membership list of the BNP (the most racist of the British political parties) was leaked this morning. Already people have lost their jobs after being found on the list.

[Poll #1300212]

Comments

[andrewducker]

My opinion was best summed up elsewhere as "We defend the rights of everyone, even if they're fascist arseholes, because otherwise we'd be as bad as the society they'd wish to create."

I would absolutely not want _my_ political views to be used to sack me, and therefore I don't agree with other people's views being used to that end. If people actively act in a racist manner then I have no problem with them being dismissed, but I am not in favour of ThoughtCrime.

[figg.livejournal.com]

There is a difference between thought crime and being the member of a racist group.

[nickys.livejournal.com]

Well, you can be dismissed from the civil service for getting involved in any political party at more than a basic level, because the civil service is supposed to be apolitical.
You're required to resign if you stand for local council elections, for example, though they'll consider reinstatement.

It's not the views (however vile) that are the cause of the dismissal, it's being positively identified with them in a public forum - ie by actively joining a party.

[alienspacebat.livejournal.com]

I agree with you completely on this one. The list release fascinates me as many liberal people I know who stand up for privacy publicly are now joining the witch hunt and saying they should get what's coming.

The list itself is also interesting as it shows grossly the distribution of supporters throughout the country in aggregate form (see http://www.bnpnearme.co.uk for an example of the data being used in this way without identification). It also shows just which details about people a political party chooses to hold such as their ability to erect stages rapidly for short notice meetings.

The main problem now is more than one version of the list is circulating. It would be fairly easy for me to reseed a modified version with a few name changes to incriminate my boss or anyone else I wanted to. In addition, the names of the children of members are currently included. It would be almost impossible to prove you had never been a member if your name was on the list.

I'll be interested to see if anyone loses their job as a result of this publication as it would make an interesting legal case to prove unfair dismissal as the list was effectively illegally obtained and of dubious accuracy.

[despotliz.livejournal.com]

Have either of the people mentioned in that Times article lost their jobs? To me it reads that Talk Sport have used the racist DJ in the past to cover shifts but have no plans to use him again, which might have been true even before he was outed.

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

Hmm. It's interestinｇ: membership is illegal in the police because it's incompatible with the duty to promote positive race relations, but that duty applies across the public sector, and there is also a duty to promote gender and disability equality, but AFAIK there are no membership exclusions attached to that, or blanket BNP bans elsewhere in the public sector.

[andrewducker]

Yup - curious, isn't it?

[akicif.livejournal.com]

When I was in the civil service, it was a general thing that you couldn't be a member of any political party, and a colleague who was a former police officer said the same applied there. Do we know for sure what the current situation is with respect to police membership of other parties?

[laserboy.livejournal.com]

I'd want a crystal clear definition of racist before answering that final question.

[andrewducker]

Feel free to take the BNP as a canonical example:

According to its constitution, the BNP is "committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948."[19] The BNP also proposes "firm but voluntary incentives for immigrants and their descendants to return home."[20]

It advocates the repeal of all anti-discrimination legislation, and restricts party membership to "indigenous British ethnic groups deriving from the class of ‘Indigenous Caucasian’". The BNP also accepts white immigrants that are assimilated into one of those ethnicities.[19]

[red-phil.livejournal.com]

One thought.

I wonder how easy it would be to jon the BNP in sombody elses name.
Then perhaps make a donation or two.
Then anonymously out the person you faked the membership for.

If employers are giong to have a kneee jerk 'Fire' response then I could see this technique being used.

[a-pawson.livejournal.com]

Extremely easy I would expect. I don't know exactly what is involved in joining the BNP, but according to the Labour party website, all you have to do to join the Labour party is fill out a form, and send them the fee. The only details they ask for are name, address, contact details and DOB. I can think of no reason why the BNP should be any harder to join.

[pizza.maircrosoft.com (from livejournal.com)]

I...

... might be curious about the list but have no idea how to find it.

[pizza.maircrosoft.com (from livejournal.com)]

(oh well. it turned out not to be so hard to find, but it is long and I got bored very quickly).

[dreema.livejournal.com]

i heard a soundbite on radio2 this morning that had the bnp leader guy saying that although the release was a bad thing, it's actually really good publicity for us, because it proves that the bnp membership is from all sorts of background and professions.

Then the cynical side of me wondered if it had been a move on behalf of the party to release the names 'by accident', and if so, how bad would the court cases be in light of the job losses...

[ashfae.livejournal.com]

Torn on that last one. I would say that it depends on how much their private beliefs interfere with them performing their jobs. If they do their jobs appropriately and then do other racist things outside of work, well, that's their right. If they deliberately sabotage their jobs, then it becomes a problem.

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

I'm on the fence about this one. The various police spokespeople have a point - it'd be really very hard for them to do their jobs amongst non-caucasian communities if some of their numbers are known to be card-carrying racists.

[red-phil.livejournal.com]

But the police should have a representative number of officers from minority groups.
Racists are a minority group.

[andrewducker]

Of course, I do worry that that just means they won't carry cards...

[dapperscavenger.livejournal.com]

What I find most interesting about your poll is that there is no option for: I would invite them round for drinks

Just, y'know, kinda noticeable omission there.

[zz]

there's also no "join them in a lynch mob so we can drag us some niggers behind our pickup trucks". :(

[drjon.livejournal.com]

True. I'd invite them around for drinks.

[aliiis.livejournal.com]

I

Have checked the list to see if I know anyone on there

Have checked the list to get addresses of where to put bricks through windows/piss through letter boxes, surely? Come on - it can't just be me??

Just a thought

[oldbaldchris.livejournal.com]

Andy, I notice the first section of your poll doesn`t have any option for "I don`t mind/care" "Its up to them" etc. I have friends who are in the labour party, but I don`t hold it against them (too much :) ).
Before anybody says thats not the same BNP racism blah blah blah, I consider positive discrimnation (which the labour party advocates) as disgusting and unfair as the negative sort.
I would also argue that stemming immigration is not racism - merely common sense.

Re: Just a thought

[andrewducker]

I kinda filed "The political views of my friends are not my business" and "I don't mind" as the same thing (or close enough).

And you _are_ an immigrant, to your current country of residence...