Offensiveness (request for comments)

[andrewducker]

I posted an entry earlier today with this LJ Icon.

It's not a nice LJ icon.

It's clearly offensive.

In fact the keyword for this icon is Offensive.

And prynne asked me if I could be convinced to delete it. Her reason being that it contains the word "retarded", and she objects to that word (link now public).

I don't disagree that it's an offensive word. I'd certainly never use it in normal conversation.

But then I'd never say any of the things in the icon. It's there, largely, as a list of things _I_ find offensive.

And I think, myself, that it serves a purpose of saying that "Andrew finds all of these statements offensive, and wouldn't care to hear them from people around him."

In particular, it says "Goths are Retarded", which I _clearly_ can't mean, as I have numerous friends who are, or have been goths, and I've seen the Sisters of Mercy live three times, and have a large collection of black t-shirts. Nobody that knows me could in any way think I mean it as something other than "Here are things that highlight idiots when they say them."

But it's not necessarily obvious from the icon. You could read it as "Here are things Andy believes." if you didn't know me very well. You could more easily read it as "Here are things Andy finds amusing."

Knowing the internet like I do, I know that it's very easy not to recognise irony ("Saying one thing and meaning something quite different"). Many's the time I've made a comment intended to be taking as silliness and had it taken seriously.

So should I take it down? Should I depend on my audience to realise what it means?

Comments

[randomchris.livejournal.com]

The "fat is caused by eating too much" is quite offensive. My wife is currently trying to lose weight. She knows she is currently fat because she ate too much in the past. People actually stating it to her face are extremely upsetting to her. It's like pointing at a huge scar from a past incident and going "ha ha ha". She no longer eats much but is still fat. Comments like that could push people into comfort eating, tears or anorexia, none of which are healthy.

Similarly, the anorexia one is a severe trigger for anybody trying to get over anorexia.

In short, I'd also appreciate it if you would stop using it. Not because it's offensive or because I think you mean it, but because it could affect vulnerable people quite badly.

[randomchris.livejournal.com]

I meant to change that first paragraph and find a word other than offensive, but forgot. Not sure what word I would use instead.

[andrewducker]

Comments like that could push people

I tend to be dubious about that kind of thing. If it _has_ affected your wife in such a way, please let me know at once. But I think that assuming that people are affected by things that much is falling into the same trap as people who want to ban GTA because it makes people into mass-murderers (or is offensive to people whose lost family/friends to gang shootings).

Not, thinking about it, that your wife reads my journal. If the only thing preventing her from doing so is the icon, I'd be open for discussion about that. In much the same way that I'd let someone know if the only thing stopping me reading their journal was a spider icon. Although in that case I'd just use AdBlock.

I've yet to hear from anyone saying "I am a goth, and I'm offended." - it's all been people being upset on other people's behalf. (That's a lie - it's mostly been people saying "Keep it!", but of the people against it...).

[randomchris.livejournal.com]

I know my wife well enough to know that she'd be quite likely to find that line upsetting. No, she doesn't read your journal, but she does sometimes read over my shoulder. (And I could ask her if that line would upset her, but I'd rather not, as it probably would.)

Freedom of speech is great, but there are some things that just don't need to be said. I'm not going to try to stop you saying them, but I will say that I think this icon lowers the intellectual tone of your journal somewhat. Maybe that's more likely to persuade you :)

[andrewducker]

If it was actively, and personally upsetting someone on my friends list, then I'd be up for having a discussion with them about it, and seeing how I felt about it after that.

Other than that, I think I'm going to stick with it for now (although I'll be careful about what posts it turns up attached to).

Might I suggest you adblock it?

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I still think the context makes a difference: if you'd said "lesbians just need to meet the right man" or, rather more tastelesly "you only get raped if you're asking for it", it would still be in a context where it was clear you disagreed with the statement and I would, frankly, be able to deal with it. Some people have had such severe (or, I suppose, recent) trauma that seeing the word "rape" will cause a meltdown, but that is an awful fact for which other individuals are not responsible, in the same way as I'm not responsible for dealing with your arachnophobia. Accommodating everyone's potential fears and trauma triggers "just in case" would make speech, let alone free speech, pretty much impossible.

For people who know who I am and what my history is, I will judge them as arseholes whom I don't wish to associate with if they choose to push certain buttons knowing I'm part of their audience. But that's action for me to take.

[marrog.livejournal.com]

The "fat is caused by eating too much" is quite offensive. My wife ... knows she is currently fat because she ate too much in the past.

I've become way too hardened over the years, because I absolutely could not believe this was a serious comment until I read your further responses.

And while I'm here: Andy, I severely object to your implication that you don't like looking at my art.

[cybik.livejournal.com]

Aye, if someone actually said "I hate art" to me, I would be horribly offended because they would, in effect, be saying "your life is meaningless and worthless".

[andrewducker]

Really? But surely it's their problem if they don't appreciate the work you do?

[cybik.livejournal.com]

No, I meant as a blanket statement. "I don't like your art, but I like other people's art" is fine. Saying "I hate art" is different and probably untrue because I doubt they'd live without T.V., films, books, fashion, photography, etc..

[chuma.livejournal.com]

I guess it comes down to the "what is art?" argument again. Often people are dragged around Galleries and Art Museums as a child and it is a boring and negative experience for your average kid who wants to run around and touch things. I would take a guess that if you thrust your views around what art actually is (rather than be offended) they will probably clarify their comment to pinpoint which areas they dont like or why they dont like it. I would imagine most people seperate Arts and Crafts in their minds subconsciously and it needs to be pointed out how completely related they are.

I think Art is there to provoke a response and sometimes that response isnt well thought out or dwelled upon, it is just gut instinct. "I don't like it" is a reponse; maybe not the one you're looking for but it is a response none the less. If they are unwilling to explore further why they dont like it or what it is about the Artthey find not to their taste, well that's not your problem :)