Offensiveness (request for comments)

[andrewducker]

I posted an entry earlier today with this LJ Icon.

It's not a nice LJ icon.

It's clearly offensive.

In fact the keyword for this icon is Offensive.

And prynne asked me if I could be convinced to delete it. Her reason being that it contains the word "retarded", and she objects to that word (link now public).

I don't disagree that it's an offensive word. I'd certainly never use it in normal conversation.

But then I'd never say any of the things in the icon. It's there, largely, as a list of things _I_ find offensive.

And I think, myself, that it serves a purpose of saying that "Andrew finds all of these statements offensive, and wouldn't care to hear them from people around him."

In particular, it says "Goths are Retarded", which I _clearly_ can't mean, as I have numerous friends who are, or have been goths, and I've seen the Sisters of Mercy live three times, and have a large collection of black t-shirts. Nobody that knows me could in any way think I mean it as something other than "Here are things that highlight idiots when they say them."

But it's not necessarily obvious from the icon. You could read it as "Here are things Andy believes." if you didn't know me very well. You could more easily read it as "Here are things Andy finds amusing."

Knowing the internet like I do, I know that it's very easy not to recognise irony ("Saying one thing and meaning something quite different"). Many's the time I've made a comment intended to be taking as silliness and had it taken seriously.

So should I take it down? Should I depend on my audience to realise what it means?

Comments

[andrewducker]

Gay, by the way, has become an insult _entirely_ separate from the homosexual thing. Apparently lots of young people have learnt "Gay" as an epithet meaning "a bit crap" long before they have any idea about homosexuality.

Which, if you ask me, is insidious.

I take your general point. Although I'm not trying to reclaim anything, so much as point out language I find offensive.

[octopoid-horror.livejournal.com]

Well yes, there's no need to note that by the way, I'm aware of that usage. That was how she meant it, but I took exception, then she got snitty. I was originally just going to report her straight to the LJ admin types, but instead commented and she changed her post. There's a difference between (successfully or unsuccesfully) being ironic/sarcastic and just using an offensive word because you don't know/don't care/are too stupid to realise that in can cause offence and certainly shouldn't be used as a such on a public forum.

I didn't suggest you were trying to reclaim offensive language, just that some people did. I am well aware of why you would have an icon like that. It's for the same reason that you and Guy would have some of the t-shirts that you do ;-)

[andrewducker]

Hmmm. I don't think that "using language some people could be offended by" and "using language with intent to offend" should be confused. Nor should people's offense be an instant license to censor. I believe things that many Christians find offensive, and I don't think I should be prevented from saying them.

[octopoid-horror.livejournal.com]

I didn't say you should censor it.

I am trying to make the point, which I now suspect you are deliberately obfuscating, judging by prior conversations we've had, that context only sometimes matters. "Punch a vegan", for example, doesn't have much offensiveness if you take the words out of context. "Vegan" is hardly an insult, an offensive slang term, nor is it easy to use as it as one.

My point here is that the last part of your post is meaningless. It doesn't matter for some people whether you're using the term in an ironic manner or not. The word itself is offensive.

What I am surprised by in all this is you making a big deal out of this. When people wearing those Cradle of Filth "Jesus is a C**t" t-shirts get cautioned by the police and object all over livejournal about it, I just want to slap them and scream "Did you not expect this could happen?" I don't want to stop them, just to slap them until they stop being so surprised by it all.

If I'm chatting to any of my actually gay as opposed to just camp and sarcastic friends, I probably wouldn't say "OMG! I's gots t3h gh3y!" or use the word "gay" as a generic term for something being bad. That's a personal choice. Admittedly, I wouldn't do the latter anyway. However, whether or not you want to say things like that (and censor yourself) isn't the issue.

It's that you appear to think everyone will look at the meaning and say "Oh he's being ironic, how terribly clever. An ironic use of a sometimes offensive word on the internet! Heavens!"

Regardless of context, some people can find things offensive. Not everyone finds irony funny either. This is the internet. So, in a vague summary, it doesn't matter that you are using the word in an ironic fashion for ridiculous effect. It has a meaning on its own, which the context does not detract from. You are aware of this (and I know that you -are- since you've emailed me on the other side of this argument before)


Personally, when I post on a community, I tend to moderate my language and not use my possibly offensive icons. I'm aware that there are plenty of people on LJ who are rather young and no, I don't actually want to swear at children online.

And to be honest, I imagine you've been hoping for something like this to happen since you started using that icon. I've heard Guy saying that he'd like someone to ask him about one of his offensive t-shirts before, since he has a comeback all ready...

[andrewducker]

I imagine you've been hoping for something like this to happen since you started using that icon

Nope. Not at all. I don't really think like that. I saw it, thought it was cool/funny, and snagged it without any thought that I might have to some day actually justify liking it. I know that it sounds wierd, but when I choose to wear a t-shirt (or whatever) it's rarely in a "I bet people will like me more/think I'm funnier because I'm wearing it" sense, but in a "Heh, I love this t-shirt." way. I bear in mind where I'm wearing it (work, generally outside or place full of ironic people with high offensiveness appreciation) because I've learned that some things aren't appropriate for certain places, and can't be arsed with the hassle.

To be honest, if I'd known I was some day going to have to justify using it, I probably wouldn't have taken it in the first place. I didn't like it _that_ much.

Oh, and to clarify, I'm not making a big deal out of "I can't believe someone was offended!!!", because I expect people to be occasionally offended. I was specifically asking for advice on where people thought my responsibilities lay, and what others thought was a morally right thing to do. Because having thought about it, I found myself unsure, and thought that more input might help me clarify my thoughts. Which it has done.